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I moved to Toronto, then to SF. Thought I'd also share my anecdata here. I used to make ~100k/yr CAD (75k/yr USD) when I was in TO around 6 years ago. I bought

by lhorie 7y ago

I moved to Toronto, then to SF. Thought I'd also share my anecdata here. I used to make ~100k/yr CAD (75k/yr USD) when I was in TO around 6 years ago. I bought a house around 7 years ago for 550k. I did a remote stint for a Boulder company for a couple years (~120k/yr USD working from TO), then moved to SF (~200k/yr USD + ~100k/yr equity). I'm a bit out of the loop w/ TO salaries nowadays, but your 170k CAD definitely seems to be on the very high end of the spectrum. A few thoughts: The biggest difference in pay comes from equity. ~100k/yr is pretty normal in SF big tech companies, whereas equity comp in TO is pretty much unheard of unless you're a partner in a company. Caveat: not all SF companies offer liquid equity, or even equity that is worth anything. Taxes are higher for me working in SF (largely because salaries of comparable positions are higher in SF) Living costs depend a lot on whether you have a spouse and/or kids. A bunkbed in SF goes for 1.6k/mo if you're single trying to save up. In TO, you can rent a cheap room for $600/mo. But for families: 2 bed condo is ~48k/yr USD, vs ~24k/yr in similar distance in TO. Another very important point: in SF, a foreigner spouse's ability to work can be extremely tricky (e.g. spouse in non-tech field would often not be able be get a work visa sponsorship at all). Canadians can get a TN visa relatively easily, but the H1B visa required for other foreigners isn't guaranteed. Green card timelines range from 2.5 years to virtually impossible to get. By comparison, getting a work visa in Canada is pretty straightforward, and the path to permanent residence is also relatively easy, regardless of country of origin. Preschool costs ~28k/yr USD per kid in SF, vs ~18k/yr CAD (13k/yr USD) Healthcare in SF costs me ~3.6k USD/yr base (plus copays/other fees depending on how frequently I actually use it) vs free in TO. Dental and vision costs are similar between SF and TO. Goods generally cost less in SF. Milk costs ~$5/gallon USD in SF vs $10/4L CAD ($7 USD) in TO. IMHO: SF is better for saving up while young, Toronto gets pretty attractive once you have a piggy bank to afford housing/build a family.

toephu2 7y ago
You can easily find a room in a house for rent between $1000-1600 in SF. Far better than a "bunkbed". Just check craigslist. But hey, everyone loves to knock expensive SF housing. 28k/yr for preschool in SF is on the high end. That is not the median. Please re-do all your prices with the median, not your handpicked most expensive version.
- lhorie 7y ago
  > room in a house for rent between $1000-1600 in SF In SF? If you mean in like Oakland, yes I believe I've seen some listings a couple years ago, though I wasn't sure they were real (sites seemed shady). I don't recall finding anything in SF proper for 1.6k, let alone 1k (anywhere), but to be fair I wasn't looking too far out from downtown at the time and since I was coming from out of the country, I was restricting my searches to reputable sources and I had no word-of-mouth network. For what it's worth, I used to rent my basement in Toronto for $300 and you can go even cheaper w/ student houses. So even if you can actually find "cheap" housing in the Bay Area, I can tell you that you can get even cheaper stuff from GTA's chinese community. The 28k/13k figure is from Bright Horizons (they have locations both in SF and TO so it's perfect for apples-to-apples comparison, and it's what I'm familiar w/). You can get definitely cheaper childcare in both cities (with the caveat that in SF you're going to struggle with wait lists, whereas you typically don't in TO). IIRC, the cheapest in SF is if you qualify for public childcare (1.7k/mo I think it was?), which is still more expensive than Bright Horizons in Toronto.
  - toephu2 7y ago
    "On average, private preschool costs about $1,350 per month in the city, according to First 5 San Francisco. T" [1] [1] https://www.scpr.org/blogs/education/2014/11/07/17526/san-francisco-s-universal-preschool-could-prove-mo/ https://www.scpr.org/blogs/education/2014/11/07/17526/san-fr...
    - lhorie 7y ago
      That's from 2014. Some googling says the average in SF in 2018 was almost 2k/mo USD[1] while Toronto was in the in 1.3-1.7k/mo CAD (1k-1.3k/mo USD) range[2] in the same period [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=average+daycare+cost+san+francisco https://www.google.com/search?q=average+daycare+cost+san+fra... [2] https://www.google.com/search?q=average+daycare+cost+toronto+2018 https://www.google.com/search?q=average+daycare+cost+toronto...
- unishark 7y ago
  You have to be careful using craigslist to assess prices. In the cities I've lived, ALL of the cheap ones are scams. They may run half or less the going rates, and promise way more for your money than the cheap end of the market should be.
hylaride 7y ago
$170kCAD for an experienced engineer in Toronto is touching the upper ranges, but 5 years ago that number was at $120CAD. You are seeing higher than 170k at some companies and I know of people working remote for SV companies at very good salaries. You’re right about equity, though. Something happened in the last 2 years in particular that has caused salaries to skyrocket (trump policies taking effect?). If you have a family, the public schools are generally better in Toronto as well.
- lhorie 7y ago
  Interesting. How things change. I do recall getting recruiter calls for 150k positions around 3-4 years ago, though mostly for startups. Big tech agencies (e.g. CGI, Klick) haven't really caught up AFAIK. I don't have experience w/ the public school system in Toronto yet, but I can say preschool definitely seemed to be one notch higher in TO than SF. In TO, my kids' school tuition included meals and they did STEM activities. In SF, you need to provide lunch, and curriculum-wise, it feels more like a glorified daycare w/ arts&crafts projects.
  - hylaride 7y ago
    Oh, the agencies still pay shit. It's quantity over quality there. It's a similar story in most financial institutions/banks as well.
bregma 7y ago
> Goods generally cost less in SF. Milk costs ~$5/gallon USD in SF vs $10/4L CAD ($7 USD) in TO. I regularly pick up a 4 L bag of 1% for about CAD 4.25 (USD 3.00). Where the heck are you doing your grocery shopping, the food hall at Holt Renfrew?
- mmartinson 7y ago
  For anyone not from Ontario, "4 L bag of 1%" must sound pretty funny.
  - bregma 7y ago
    Not as funny as a bag of homo.
- s_y_n_t_a_x 7y ago
  To be nitpicky, $5 is too high of an estimate: https://ballotpedia.org/Milk_prices_by_state,_2018 https://ballotpedia.org/Milk_prices_by_state,_2018
- lhorie 7y ago
  I looked up prices from Safeway and NoFrills for 2% milk

by lhorie 7y ago

toephu2 7y ago

You can easily find a room in a house for rent between $1000-1600 in SF. Far better than a "bunkbed". Just check craigslist. But hey, everyone loves to knock expensive SF housing. 28k/yr for preschool in SF is on the high end. That is not the median. Please re-do all your prices with the median, not your handpicked most expensive version.

lhorie 7y ago
> room in a house for rent between $1000-1600 in SF In SF? If you mean in like Oakland, yes I believe I've seen some listings a couple years ago, though I wasn't sure they were real (sites seemed shady). I don't recall finding anything in SF proper for 1.6k, let alone 1k (anywhere), but to be fair I wasn't looking too far out from downtown at the time and since I was coming from out of the country, I was restricting my searches to reputable sources and I had no word-of-mouth network. For what it's worth, I used to rent my basement in Toronto for $300 and you can go even cheaper w/ student houses. So even if you can actually find "cheap" housing in the Bay Area, I can tell you that you can get even cheaper stuff from GTA's chinese community. The 28k/13k figure is from Bright Horizons (they have locations both in SF and TO so it's perfect for apples-to-apples comparison, and it's what I'm familiar w/). You can get definitely cheaper childcare in both cities (with the caveat that in SF you're going to struggle with wait lists, whereas you typically don't in TO). IIRC, the cheapest in SF is if you qualify for public childcare (1.7k/mo I think it was?), which is still more expensive than Bright Horizons in Toronto.
- toephu2 7y ago
  "On average, private preschool costs about $1,350 per month in the city, according to First 5 San Francisco. T" [1] [1] https://www.scpr.org/blogs/education/2014/11/07/17526/san-francisco-s-universal-preschool-could-prove-mo/ https://www.scpr.org/blogs/education/2014/11/07/17526/san-fr...
  - lhorie 7y ago
    That's from 2014. Some googling says the average in SF in 2018 was almost 2k/mo USD[1] while Toronto was in the in 1.3-1.7k/mo CAD (1k-1.3k/mo USD) range[2] in the same period [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=average+daycare+cost+san+francisco https://www.google.com/search?q=average+daycare+cost+san+fra... [2] https://www.google.com/search?q=average+daycare+cost+toronto+2018 https://www.google.com/search?q=average+daycare+cost+toronto...
unishark 7y ago
You have to be careful using craigslist to assess prices. In the cities I've lived, ALL of the cheap ones are scams. They may run half or less the going rates, and promise way more for your money than the cheap end of the market should be.

hylaride 7y ago

$170kCAD for an experienced engineer in Toronto is touching the upper ranges, but 5 years ago that number was at $120CAD. You are seeing higher than 170k at some companies and I know of people working remote for SV companies at very good salaries. You’re right about equity, though. Something happened in the last 2 years in particular that has caused salaries to skyrocket (trump policies taking effect?). If you have a family, the public schools are generally better in Toronto as well.

lhorie 7y ago
Interesting. How things change. I do recall getting recruiter calls for 150k positions around 3-4 years ago, though mostly for startups. Big tech agencies (e.g. CGI, Klick) haven't really caught up AFAIK. I don't have experience w/ the public school system in Toronto yet, but I can say preschool definitely seemed to be one notch higher in TO than SF. In TO, my kids' school tuition included meals and they did STEM activities. In SF, you need to provide lunch, and curriculum-wise, it feels more like a glorified daycare w/ arts&crafts projects.
- hylaride 7y ago
  Oh, the agencies still pay shit. It's quantity over quality there. It's a similar story in most financial institutions/banks as well.

bregma 7y ago

> Goods generally cost less in SF. Milk costs ~$5/gallon USD in SF vs $10/4L CAD ($7 USD) in TO. I regularly pick up a 4 L bag of 1% for about CAD 4.25 (USD 3.00). Where the heck are you doing your grocery shopping, the food hall at Holt Renfrew?

mmartinson 7y ago
For anyone not from Ontario, "4 L bag of 1%" must sound pretty funny.
- bregma 7y ago
  Not as funny as a bag of homo.
s_y_n_t_a_x 7y ago
To be nitpicky, $5 is too high of an estimate: https://ballotpedia.org/Milk_prices_by_state,_2018 https://ballotpedia.org/Milk_prices_by_state,_2018
lhorie 7y ago
I looked up prices from Safeway and NoFrills for 2% milk