5 ms·

No, I really think Jared Loughner is going to be put to death for his search history. Loughner is obviously insane, but these searches establish legal sanity,

by rms 16y ago

No, I really think Jared Loughner is going to be put to death for his search history. Loughner is obviously insane, but these searches establish legal sanity, which means knowing the difference between right or wrong, or understanding the consequences for your crimes. Jared Loughner commmited this crime strongly expecting that he would be put to death for his actions. Does the USA even have lifetime psych confinement? Insanity defenses are almost never successful.

yummyfajitas 16y ago
I've heard a proposal, which I generally tend to think is a good idea: eliminate the insanity defense, but give judges the option to send criminals to the insane asylum rather than prison. Does anyone with greater knowledge see flaws with this idea?
- ceejayoz 16y ago
  Isn't that what the insanity defense already generally does?
  - protomyth 16y ago
    It is supposed to work like that, yet it seems to let the person back on the street at some point. The only real way I can see that as safe is if they removed a tumor or something that was causing the problem.
- rms 16y ago
  Yes, psychological treatment is almost ridiculously obviously a better thing to do with criminals than lock them in boxes for an extremely long time. The problem is not with the idea, but with changing a system as entrenched as the prison-industrial complex.
- jhancock 16y ago
  Perhaps its better to simply enable prison systems to treat people with mental illness properly without regard to whether the mental illness was diagnosed or related of the original reason they ended up in prison. Of course, treating mental illness is expensive and requires more staff per inmate, etc... Its my understanding there are quite a few schizophrenics in general population as its simply too expensive to deal with them in a more human fashion. But of course if we are talking about more humane treatment and possibly rehabilitative treatment then we need to extend the discussion to all prisoners.
- btilly 16y ago
  Does anyone with greater knowledge see flaws with this idea? Yes. There are cases where the insanity defense is clearly correct, and extended incarceration makes no sense. One example is a man who had become very abusive to his wife and newborn. Medical tests demonstrated the existence of a brain tumor. Removal of the tumor removed his uncontrollable rages and restored his normal state of being. (Along with great remorse over what he had done.) After that, what purpose would incarceration have served other than to derive his wife and young child of much needed income? In practice, though, I've heard that those who are found to be insane will, on average, wind up incarcerated longer than those who are not. True, it is a mental hospital rather than a jail. But the effect is similar to what you indicate. With the twist that discharge happens only after medical professionals judge that the person has improved, rather than having the discharge happen according to a guess by the judge.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
  - yummyfajitas 16y ago
    I hate to add noise to the conversation, but I would like to thank you for changing my opinion on this matter. I was wrong and now I understand why.
ceejayoz 16y ago
Knowledge of likely punishment and knowledge of wrongness are entirely separate things. Protesting the government in Iran might get me punished, but that doesn't make it wrong.
- brettnak 16y ago
  It does in a system where the law determines right and wrong.
tokenadult 16y ago
Does the USA even have lifetime psych confinement? Different jurisdictions have different laws. Loughner looks set to be tried both under United States federal law and Arizona state law. John Hinckley, Jr. http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/hinckley/hinckleytrial.html http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/hinckley/hi... was found not guilty by reason of insanity after attempting to assassinate President Reagan. He has been confined since then as an involuntarily committed psychiatric patient who is deemed a danger to other persons, although he has had some supervised furloughs from the hospital. He is likely to be under court supervision his entire life. The law under which Hinckley escaped conviction has since been changed, so that an insanity defense for a crime committed in DC is now much harder for the defendant.
septicmadman 16y ago
Do you say that because you think his search history is the piece of evidence that is going to prevent him from making a successful insanity plea? The requirements for an insanity defense are far too strict in their current state after the reform legislation in 1984. Legal sanity is a backwards concept, but given the amount of effort that is being put into this case (and that he's being tried in federal court for killing a federal judge) this is exceptional and not something we should use to define what is common practice. However, it's certainly wrong and I dislike it, but at least my internet license will be shiny.
- rms 16y ago
  Yes.
ZachPruckowski 16y ago
I still don't see the problem here. The only things that aren't subpoena-able are things covered by doctor-patient confidentiality or attorney-client privilege. My phone calls and credit cards and bank accounts are similarly subpoena-able. The privacy issue isn't that this stuff is made available to investigators through due process after they already have reasonable suspicion, it's when investigators just go on a fishing expedition through it.
- micks56 16y ago
  Not all states recognize the doctor-patient privilege. For example, Massachusetts does not. And attorney-client privilege is not absolute. I have no idea where Arizona sits on either of those issues.
redrobot5050 16y ago
FYI: Arizona does not allow the insanity defense in capital crimes. If he's mentally fit to stand trial, he faces the death penalty.

by rms 16y ago

yummyfajitas 16y ago

I've heard a proposal, which I generally tend to think is a good idea: eliminate the insanity defense, but give judges the option to send criminals to the insane asylum rather than prison. Does anyone with greater knowledge see flaws with this idea?

ceejayoz 16y ago
Isn't that what the insanity defense already generally does?
- protomyth 16y ago
  It is supposed to work like that, yet it seems to let the person back on the street at some point. The only real way I can see that as safe is if they removed a tumor or something that was causing the problem.
rms 16y ago
Yes, psychological treatment is almost ridiculously obviously a better thing to do with criminals than lock them in boxes for an extremely long time. The problem is not with the idea, but with changing a system as entrenched as the prison-industrial complex.
jhancock 16y ago
Perhaps its better to simply enable prison systems to treat people with mental illness properly without regard to whether the mental illness was diagnosed or related of the original reason they ended up in prison. Of course, treating mental illness is expensive and requires more staff per inmate, etc... Its my understanding there are quite a few schizophrenics in general population as its simply too expensive to deal with them in a more human fashion. But of course if we are talking about more humane treatment and possibly rehabilitative treatment then we need to extend the discussion to all prisoners.
btilly 16y ago
Does anyone with greater knowledge see flaws with this idea? Yes. There are cases where the insanity defense is clearly correct, and extended incarceration makes no sense. One example is a man who had become very abusive to his wife and newborn. Medical tests demonstrated the existence of a brain tumor. Removal of the tumor removed his uncontrollable rages and restored his normal state of being. (Along with great remorse over what he had done.) After that, what purpose would incarceration have served other than to derive his wife and young child of much needed income? In practice, though, I've heard that those who are found to be insane will, on average, wind up incarcerated longer than those who are not. True, it is a mental hospital rather than a jail. But the effect is similar to what you indicate. With the twist that discharge happens only after medical professionals judge that the person has improved, rather than having the discharge happen according to a guess by the judge.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- yummyfajitas 16y ago
  I hate to add noise to the conversation, but I would like to thank you for changing my opinion on this matter. I was wrong and now I understand why.

ceejayoz 16y ago

Knowledge of likely punishment and knowledge of wrongness are entirely separate things. Protesting the government in Iran might get me punished, but that doesn't make it wrong.

brettnak 16y ago
It does in a system where the law determines right and wrong.

tokenadult 16y ago

Does the USA even have lifetime psych confinement? Different jurisdictions have different laws. Loughner looks set to be tried both under United States federal law and Arizona state law. John Hinckley, Jr. http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/hinckley/hinckleytrial.html http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/hinckley/hi... was found not guilty by reason of insanity after attempting to assassinate President Reagan. He has been confined since then as an involuntarily committed psychiatric patient who is deemed a danger to other persons, although he has had some supervised furloughs from the hospital. He is likely to be under court supervision his entire life. The law under which Hinckley escaped conviction has since been changed, so that an insanity defense for a crime committed in DC is now much harder for the defendant.

septicmadman 16y ago

Do you say that because you think his search history is the piece of evidence that is going to prevent him from making a successful insanity plea? The requirements for an insanity defense are far too strict in their current state after the reform legislation in 1984. Legal sanity is a backwards concept, but given the amount of effort that is being put into this case (and that he's being tried in federal court for killing a federal judge) this is exceptional and not something we should use to define what is common practice. However, it's certainly wrong and I dislike it, but at least my internet license will be shiny.

rms 16y ago
Yes.

ZachPruckowski 16y ago

I still don't see the problem here. The only things that aren't subpoena-able are things covered by doctor-patient confidentiality or attorney-client privilege. My phone calls and credit cards and bank accounts are similarly subpoena-able. The privacy issue isn't that this stuff is made available to investigators through due process after they already have reasonable suspicion, it's when investigators just go on a fishing expedition through it.

micks56 16y ago
Not all states recognize the doctor-patient privilege. For example, Massachusetts does not. And attorney-client privilege is not absolute. I have no idea where Arizona sits on either of those issues.

redrobot5050 16y ago

FYI: Arizona does not allow the insanity defense in capital crimes. If he's mentally fit to stand trial, he faces the death penalty.