5 ms·

ADA is not exactly a new law -- it was over a decade old when Tran set up shop. It's entirely on her (and her real estate surveyor) for not doing the diligence

by nimish 7y ago

ADA is not exactly a new law -- it was over a decade old when Tran set up shop. It's entirely on her (and her real estate surveyor) for not doing the diligence to ensure that her coffee shop was accessible. I can't shed too many tears here, since she's got a profitable business; enough to expand. ADA accessibility is great. Not just for the disabled, but for everyone with reduced mobility. Ever tried to get around old European cities? It's tough even for the able bodied. Imagine that, every day, for those who are permanently with reduced mobility, including the elderly, sick, pregnant, or otherwise handicapped.

stickfigure 7y ago
Yes, I have spent quite a lot of time in old European and colonial cities. They have charm in exactly the way that US cities do not, and it's a shame. I wish US cities were a lot more like European cities and a lot less like corporate strip malls. I would be wholly in favor of repealing (or at least seriously limiting) the ADA. Yes, it sucks to be mobility impaired, but we don't need to bring the whole world down to the lowest common denominator.
- calcifer 7y ago
  > we don't need to bring the whole world down to the lowest common denominator. ... says the man who isn't disabled.
  - backupcavalry 7y ago
    While I get what you mean, he's right: there's a line that's going to get drawn somewhere, like as not. Now where exactly is something beyond my ken but there are definitely things that will never be viable for the disabled. In all honesty? I'd rather devote the resources to helping disabled people function fully (or near-fully) again. But that in of itself is sort of wishful thinking.
    - mondoshawan 7y ago
      I would love to be able to walk just like anyone normal. Instead, I deal with major pain every day of my life because assholes like you refuse to build in basic, small things like a fucking chair to sit on while waiting, usually because "it would hurt the asthetics" or some dumb notion like it (ie: apple store, malls, amusement parks...). ADA is the lowest common denominator. Its not asking for you to rebuild a whole building -- it asks for reasonable concessions to be made -- and its absolutely amazing how business owners go out of their way to make it harder on themselves and the disabled. What I don't understand is this "line" that "must be drawn" I've seen from you and others: the point is to negotiate and find a compromise between the disabled and the owner within reasonable limits. The fact that businesses and public institutions are unwilling to play ball and throw their toys out of the pram every time this comes up is amazing and sad that it even comes to that point. Usually because upfront investment in the material/business is smaller and usually beneficial for everyone in the long run! In TFA, crema bought the location years after ADA was already law. The fact that it became a risk to them now is unsurprising, and the fact that they're closing that location is sad for both parties. The fact that it's also possibly a predatory lawsuit is also sad, and I hope something that can be rectified -- but I'm also not surprised to hear of such high numbers of lawsuits over the problem, given how old the law is now, and given how many places I have been to in the valley that don't have ramps.
      - burgerboy 7y ago
        Just because someone doesn't agree with your opinion doesn't make them an asshole. If anything you are being the asshole here by throwing insults.
  - barrkel 7y ago
    Most people aren't disabled. The line cannot be absolute - that's not fair on the abled either.
    - mondoshawan 7y ago
      Reasonable concessions can be made, at least out of sympathy for your fellow human. You can probably walk more than 1000 feet without serious pain. I can't, but you can't tell outwardly until I'm sitting on the ground in tears because of the pain. This line of reasoning is why finding a disabled parking spot when I need one is an act in frustration -- usually because people who don't need it park there because "it'll just be a minute, and there aren't that many handicapped people out there..." You can walk that extra distance. To me, that extra distance determines whether or not I can finish my day in a little pain, or have to stop early because it hurts too much.
      - barrkel 7y ago
        Reasonable concessions can be made, of course; but that's not what I'm arguing against. I'm saying that all possible concessions can't be made.
        mondoshawan 7y ago
        Of course not, but neither can all possible disabilities be accounted for, which is why the law was written the way it was. Nobody is arguing for all possible concessions to be made. That's a straw man you created yourself.
- mondoshawan 7y ago
  This is exactly why the ADA is needed. This took me a while to write because of how callous and frustratingly idiotic your statement is. I have two clubbed feet, and have had serious reconstructive surgery to at least let me walk. I fully expect to be sitting in a wheelchair in about 5 years as my feet, knees, hips and lower back are all slowly degrading into piles of mush and severe pain as the bone breaks down. As one who lives in pain just to walk, all I can say is: I hope you reap what you sow.
  - chroma 7y ago
    You must draw a line somewhere, right? For example: do you agree with UC Berkeley taking down 20,000 videos of lectures because they lack subtitles and therefore violate the ADA?[1] Should the ADA also require all businesses to be accessible to someone in an iron lung? At some point the cost of accommodation becomes too great. People simply disagree on where that point is. 1. https://news.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/2016-08-30-UC-Berkeley-LOF.pdf https://news.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/2016-08...
    - mondoshawan 7y ago
      No, and neither do the complaintants in that link you posted. The point is to negotiate something reasonable between the owner and the person who can't access the material/service/whatever. The fact that UC Berkley -- a federally funded public university -- failed to come to a compromise is quite sad, especially given that the complaintants in that link would like to use the material in their classes and work. Look, read the law. Its written very clearly. It specifically mentions "reasonable accomodations" both in terms to the disabled and the owner in terms of cost, discrimination, etc.
      - chroma 7y ago
        If the law is so onerous that UC Berkeley can’t afford to follow it, what chance do small businesses have? Just because you say the law is written clearly doesn’t mean the law is clear. In practice, it seems to be so vague and so selectively enforced as to be utterly unpredictable.
- nimish 7y ago
  That "Charm" really truly sucks when you're not able to move well (say, if you're drunk....) or you're old or sick or $insert_case_here It's a false dichotomy to argue that accessible buildings can't be charming. It simply must be taken into account when designing them. It betrays an immense lack of empathy.
backupcavalry 7y ago
I don't know, does making enough to expand mean they can spare 100k just for renovations? That, and the article specifically mentions the people that file these lawsuits are grabbing for money. I'm all for making things more accessible but these sort of cases are exactly what makes people less sympathetic and willing to help.
- astura 7y ago
  Like it or not, this is actually how the ADA was intended to be used, instead of creating "ADA police," it relies on mostly enforcement brought on by private parties.
- mondoshawan 7y ago
  What makes people less sympathetic to help, exactly, when I walk up to a business owner in obvious pain and ask for an extra disabled parking space so I can make it to my desk and car with less? The lack of sympathy is up front before the lawsuits begin, and lies with the business owner.

by nimish 7y ago

stickfigure 7y ago

Yes, I have spent quite a lot of time in old European and colonial cities. They have charm in exactly the way that US cities do not, and it's a shame. I wish US cities were a lot more like European cities and a lot less like corporate strip malls. I would be wholly in favor of repealing (or at least seriously limiting) the ADA. Yes, it sucks to be mobility impaired, but we don't need to bring the whole world down to the lowest common denominator.

calcifer 7y ago
> we don't need to bring the whole world down to the lowest common denominator. ... says the man who isn't disabled.
- backupcavalry 7y ago
  While I get what you mean, he's right: there's a line that's going to get drawn somewhere, like as not. Now where exactly is something beyond my ken but there are definitely things that will never be viable for the disabled. In all honesty? I'd rather devote the resources to helping disabled people function fully (or near-fully) again. But that in of itself is sort of wishful thinking.
  - mondoshawan 7y ago
    I would love to be able to walk just like anyone normal. Instead, I deal with major pain every day of my life because assholes like you refuse to build in basic, small things like a fucking chair to sit on while waiting, usually because "it would hurt the asthetics" or some dumb notion like it (ie: apple store, malls, amusement parks...). ADA is the lowest common denominator. Its not asking for you to rebuild a whole building -- it asks for reasonable concessions to be made -- and its absolutely amazing how business owners go out of their way to make it harder on themselves and the disabled. What I don't understand is this "line" that "must be drawn" I've seen from you and others: the point is to negotiate and find a compromise between the disabled and the owner within reasonable limits. The fact that businesses and public institutions are unwilling to play ball and throw their toys out of the pram every time this comes up is amazing and sad that it even comes to that point. Usually because upfront investment in the material/business is smaller and usually beneficial for everyone in the long run! In TFA, crema bought the location years after ADA was already law. The fact that it became a risk to them now is unsurprising, and the fact that they're closing that location is sad for both parties. The fact that it's also possibly a predatory lawsuit is also sad, and I hope something that can be rectified -- but I'm also not surprised to hear of such high numbers of lawsuits over the problem, given how old the law is now, and given how many places I have been to in the valley that don't have ramps.
    - burgerboy 7y ago
      Just because someone doesn't agree with your opinion doesn't make them an asshole. If anything you are being the asshole here by throwing insults.
- barrkel 7y ago
  Most people aren't disabled. The line cannot be absolute - that's not fair on the abled either.
  - mondoshawan 7y ago
    Reasonable concessions can be made, at least out of sympathy for your fellow human. You can probably walk more than 1000 feet without serious pain. I can't, but you can't tell outwardly until I'm sitting on the ground in tears because of the pain. This line of reasoning is why finding a disabled parking spot when I need one is an act in frustration -- usually because people who don't need it park there because "it'll just be a minute, and there aren't that many handicapped people out there..." You can walk that extra distance. To me, that extra distance determines whether or not I can finish my day in a little pain, or have to stop early because it hurts too much.
    - barrkel 7y ago
      Reasonable concessions can be made, of course; but that's not what I'm arguing against. I'm saying that all possible concessions can't be made.
      - mondoshawan 7y ago
        Of course not, but neither can all possible disabilities be accounted for, which is why the law was written the way it was. Nobody is arguing for all possible concessions to be made. That's a straw man you created yourself.
mondoshawan 7y ago
This is exactly why the ADA is needed. This took me a while to write because of how callous and frustratingly idiotic your statement is. I have two clubbed feet, and have had serious reconstructive surgery to at least let me walk. I fully expect to be sitting in a wheelchair in about 5 years as my feet, knees, hips and lower back are all slowly degrading into piles of mush and severe pain as the bone breaks down. As one who lives in pain just to walk, all I can say is: I hope you reap what you sow.
- chroma 7y ago
  You must draw a line somewhere, right? For example: do you agree with UC Berkeley taking down 20,000 videos of lectures because they lack subtitles and therefore violate the ADA?[1] Should the ADA also require all businesses to be accessible to someone in an iron lung? At some point the cost of accommodation becomes too great. People simply disagree on where that point is. 1. https://news.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/2016-08-30-UC-Berkeley-LOF.pdf https://news.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/2016-08...
  - mondoshawan 7y ago
    No, and neither do the complaintants in that link you posted. The point is to negotiate something reasonable between the owner and the person who can't access the material/service/whatever. The fact that UC Berkley -- a federally funded public university -- failed to come to a compromise is quite sad, especially given that the complaintants in that link would like to use the material in their classes and work. Look, read the law. Its written very clearly. It specifically mentions "reasonable accomodations" both in terms to the disabled and the owner in terms of cost, discrimination, etc.
    - chroma 7y ago
      If the law is so onerous that UC Berkeley can’t afford to follow it, what chance do small businesses have? Just because you say the law is written clearly doesn’t mean the law is clear. In practice, it seems to be so vague and so selectively enforced as to be utterly unpredictable.
nimish 7y ago
That "Charm" really truly sucks when you're not able to move well (say, if you're drunk....) or you're old or sick or $insert_case_here It's a false dichotomy to argue that accessible buildings can't be charming. It simply must be taken into account when designing them. It betrays an immense lack of empathy.

backupcavalry 7y ago

I don't know, does making enough to expand mean they can spare 100k just for renovations? That, and the article specifically mentions the people that file these lawsuits are grabbing for money. I'm all for making things more accessible but these sort of cases are exactly what makes people less sympathetic and willing to help.

astura 7y ago
Like it or not, this is actually how the ADA was intended to be used, instead of creating "ADA police," it relies on mostly enforcement brought on by private parties.
mondoshawan 7y ago
What makes people less sympathetic to help, exactly, when I walk up to a business owner in obvious pain and ask for an extra disabled parking space so I can make it to my desk and car with less? The lack of sympathy is up front before the lawsuits begin, and lies with the business owner.