6 ms·

I'm moving from San Francisco to Toronto soon. Staying at the same job, my salary will go from $180k usd to $128k usd ($170k cad). (Equity comp remains the sa

I'm moving from San Francisco to Toronto soon. Staying at the same job, my salary will go from $180k usd to $128k usd ($170k cad). (Equity comp remains the same) That's a pretty big cut, though at least for me it's worth it because of non-monetary reasons, like being closer to family, not dealing with immigration anymore, healthcare/education. The money stuff isn't so bad. A downtown Toronto condo is a lot cheaper than San Francisco. That alone makes the pay cut easy enough to swallow. Either way I can comfortably live on a tech salary. Starting prices for: 3 Bed SF condo: 1.2M usd 3 Bed TO condo: 0.7M usd (900k cad) No rigorous comparison, just from me house hunting in both markets.

vtange 7y ago
Would you have made the switch if it wasn't closer to family?
- mcpherrinm 7y ago
  I'd probably be in Vancouver or Montreal otherwise.
  - fouc 7y ago
    The salary would still be 128k usd in those cities too right?
    - blaser-waffle 7y ago
      Probably not Montreal -- they have a reputation for lower pay and higher taxes. But also considerably cheaper COL. As a friend from out that way put it, "its harder to be a consumer there, but easier to be a human".
      - wenc 7y ago
        > As a friend from out that way put it, "its harder to be a consumer there, but easier to be a human". This rings true but it depends on what kind of human you are (I lived in Montreal for many years and enjoyed it there, but did not see myself living there long term). It's easier to be lower middle class, an artist, a student, a chef, a government employee, etc. in Montreal, but if you're at all an ambitious human, Montreal has less for you. Apart from the universities (there's one that is highly-ranked internationally), it's not the kind of city that attracts go-getters (exceptions exist of course -- the tech scene these days, though still not comparable to major U.S. cities, is much different from when I was there). Montrealers feel less of an economic struggle (more joie-de-vivre and love of the simple life, rents are controlled, CoL is low), but the existential struggle to fit in (if you're not pur-laine Quebecois), to find community (if you don't speak French at near native levels) and to find meaningful work (if you're at the top of your profession) is far more pronounced if you're ambitious. Being fully human (for me) means being able to express myself in one's work and having good relationships. For many Americans, finding these things in Montreal may be more challenging than say a place like Toronto. On the other hand, Montreal is a way more interesting place to vacation than Toronto.
jariel 7y ago
It's a problematic comparison because few people in Canada earns $170K CAD writing software unless they are contracting for the government. Even then. There are a few people lucky enough to 'make the deal' that you have. Also, there are very few 'great companies' in Canada to work for, that can leverage high end talent - Canada is 1/10th the size of the US and spends less than 1/2 on R&D per capita. This is because Canada doesn't generally have the kinds of companies that are R&D intensive. Unfortunately. I think most Toronto devs would happily move to California for a huge pay increase and a chance to work for a 'great company' whereas I feel few wold do the reverse. I'm really wary of reading NPR articles like this because I feel they are basically playing the facts into a narrative of their political viewpoint.
- mcpherrinm 7y ago
  Well, we're hiring. https://careers.squareup.com/us/en/jobs?location%5B%5D=Toronto%2C%20Canada&role%5B%5D=Software%20Engineering https://careers.squareup.com/us/en/jobs?location%5B%5D=Toron... I acknowledge I'm not in a position many will find themselves in. The shortage of senior engineering positions that pay accordingly is real. There's much more selection of jobs in SF than TO.
- gdilla 7y ago
  It really depends on many factors. New grads? Sure, who wouldn't move to Cali from Canada. Married, kids, spouse working in non tech? Well, ya, staying in Canada is a lot better if one earner can get a high paying tech salary that's becoming more common now.
- mabbo 7y ago
  Amazon has 1300 people in Toronto, nearly all devs. For an sde2, 170k CAD total comp (salary + RSUs) is pretty typical. Vancouver office had 2200 people, similar situation.
  - blaser-waffle 7y ago
    Currently the exchange rate is .77, so $170k CAD is $128,025.30 USD. That's nothin to shake a stick at, but by NYC, DC, Seattle, LA, SF, etc. rates it is middling. Meanwhile, SDE2 at Amazon or others is like $200K USD, at least according to HN a year ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18439144 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18439144 Seattle is expensive as hell these days, but Vancouver still blows it out of the water, and Toronto isn't cheap either; an improvement over SV or Manhattan, for sure, but not like Raleigh-Durham or rural Arkansas.
lhorie 7y ago
I moved to Toronto, then to SF. Thought I'd also share my anecdata here. I used to make ~100k/yr CAD (75k/yr USD) when I was in TO around 6 years ago. I bought a house around 7 years ago for 550k. I did a remote stint for a Boulder company for a couple years (~120k/yr USD working from TO), then moved to SF (~200k/yr USD + ~100k/yr equity). I'm a bit out of the loop w/ TO salaries nowadays, but your 170k CAD definitely seems to be on the very high end of the spectrum. A few thoughts: The biggest difference in pay comes from equity. ~100k/yr is pretty normal in SF big tech companies, whereas equity comp in TO is pretty much unheard of unless you're a partner in a company. Caveat: not all SF companies offer liquid equity, or even equity that is worth anything. Taxes are higher for me working in SF (largely because salaries of comparable positions are higher in SF) Living costs depend a lot on whether you have a spouse and/or kids. A bunkbed in SF goes for 1.6k/mo if you're single trying to save up. In TO, you can rent a cheap room for $600/mo. But for families: 2 bed condo is ~48k/yr USD, vs ~24k/yr in similar distance in TO. Another very important point: in SF, a foreigner spouse's ability to work can be extremely tricky (e.g. spouse in non-tech field would often not be able be get a work visa sponsorship at all). Canadians can get a TN visa relatively easily, but the H1B visa required for other foreigners isn't guaranteed. Green card timelines range from 2.5 years to virtually impossible to get. By comparison, getting a work visa in Canada is pretty straightforward, and the path to permanent residence is also relatively easy, regardless of country of origin. Preschool costs ~28k/yr USD per kid in SF, vs ~18k/yr CAD (13k/yr USD) Healthcare in SF costs me ~3.6k USD/yr base (plus copays/other fees depending on how frequently I actually use it) vs free in TO. Dental and vision costs are similar between SF and TO. Goods generally cost less in SF. Milk costs ~$5/gallon USD in SF vs $10/4L CAD ($7 USD) in TO. IMHO: SF is better for saving up while young, Toronto gets pretty attractive once you have a piggy bank to afford housing/build a family.
- toephu2 7y ago
  You can easily find a room in a house for rent between $1000-1600 in SF. Far better than a "bunkbed". Just check craigslist. But hey, everyone loves to knock expensive SF housing. 28k/yr for preschool in SF is on the high end. That is not the median. Please re-do all your prices with the median, not your handpicked most expensive version.
toephu2 7y ago
How's the weather there though? Can we just stop comparing cities? Everyone loves to complain about the cost of living in SF and always brags about how they could buy a mansion in the midwest. No one cares. It's all about location. There is a reason why California is the most populous state in the union despite it being so expensive (weather and jobs). There is a reason the population in the midwest is so low (lack of jobs and weather mostly).
- lhorie 7y ago
  > How's the weather there though? Right this moment, they are almost the same (46F in SF vs 37F in Toronto). Toronto winter usually goes between 5F and 40F, but summer is way warmer than SF (between 75F to 90F vs 60F to 70F in SF)
  - lotsofpulp 7y ago
    Humidity is just as big a factor as temperature, and anything East if the Rocky Mountains is more humid than west of Rocky Mountains, in my experience.
  - refurb 7y ago
    Are you picking temperatures in the middle of the night? 46F is the nightly low in SF, versus being a record warm day in Toronto during the winter.
    - crystaldev 7y ago
      This is the clearance section of HN comments, there are no refunds or returns.
    - lhorie 7y ago
      Yes, that was around 9pm PST. Right now (9am PST) it's 47F in SF vs 38F in TO. Forecast for noon today is 53F in SF vs 38F in Toronto. It is an unusually warm winter in TO this year, though what I said about summers being warmer in TO holds true every year.
  - 7y ago
RandyRanderson 7y ago
I recently sold my 2bd/2bath 1100 sqft condo in TO for 1MM CAD. No view. IF you can find a 3bd condo it will cost you WAY more than 900CAD.

vtange 7y ago

Would you have made the switch if it wasn't closer to family?

mcpherrinm 7y ago
I'd probably be in Vancouver or Montreal otherwise.
- fouc 7y ago
  The salary would still be 128k usd in those cities too right?
  - blaser-waffle 7y ago
    Probably not Montreal -- they have a reputation for lower pay and higher taxes. But also considerably cheaper COL. As a friend from out that way put it, "its harder to be a consumer there, but easier to be a human".
    - wenc 7y ago
      > As a friend from out that way put it, "its harder to be a consumer there, but easier to be a human". This rings true but it depends on what kind of human you are (I lived in Montreal for many years and enjoyed it there, but did not see myself living there long term). It's easier to be lower middle class, an artist, a student, a chef, a government employee, etc. in Montreal, but if you're at all an ambitious human, Montreal has less for you. Apart from the universities (there's one that is highly-ranked internationally), it's not the kind of city that attracts go-getters (exceptions exist of course -- the tech scene these days, though still not comparable to major U.S. cities, is much different from when I was there). Montrealers feel less of an economic struggle (more joie-de-vivre and love of the simple life, rents are controlled, CoL is low), but the existential struggle to fit in (if you're not pur-laine Quebecois), to find community (if you don't speak French at near native levels) and to find meaningful work (if you're at the top of your profession) is far more pronounced if you're ambitious. Being fully human (for me) means being able to express myself in one's work and having good relationships. For many Americans, finding these things in Montreal may be more challenging than say a place like Toronto. On the other hand, Montreal is a way more interesting place to vacation than Toronto.

jariel 7y ago

It's a problematic comparison because few people in Canada earns $170K CAD writing software unless they are contracting for the government. Even then. There are a few people lucky enough to 'make the deal' that you have. Also, there are very few 'great companies' in Canada to work for, that can leverage high end talent - Canada is 1/10th the size of the US and spends less than 1/2 on R&D per capita. This is because Canada doesn't generally have the kinds of companies that are R&D intensive. Unfortunately. I think most Toronto devs would happily move to California for a huge pay increase and a chance to work for a 'great company' whereas I feel few wold do the reverse. I'm really wary of reading NPR articles like this because I feel they are basically playing the facts into a narrative of their political viewpoint.

mcpherrinm 7y ago
Well, we're hiring. https://careers.squareup.com/us/en/jobs?location%5B%5D=Toronto%2C%20Canada&role%5B%5D=Software%20Engineering https://careers.squareup.com/us/en/jobs?location%5B%5D=Toron... I acknowledge I'm not in a position many will find themselves in. The shortage of senior engineering positions that pay accordingly is real. There's much more selection of jobs in SF than TO.
gdilla 7y ago
It really depends on many factors. New grads? Sure, who wouldn't move to Cali from Canada. Married, kids, spouse working in non tech? Well, ya, staying in Canada is a lot better if one earner can get a high paying tech salary that's becoming more common now.
mabbo 7y ago
Amazon has 1300 people in Toronto, nearly all devs. For an sde2, 170k CAD total comp (salary + RSUs) is pretty typical. Vancouver office had 2200 people, similar situation.
- blaser-waffle 7y ago
  Currently the exchange rate is .77, so $170k CAD is $128,025.30 USD. That's nothin to shake a stick at, but by NYC, DC, Seattle, LA, SF, etc. rates it is middling. Meanwhile, SDE2 at Amazon or others is like $200K USD, at least according to HN a year ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18439144 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18439144 Seattle is expensive as hell these days, but Vancouver still blows it out of the water, and Toronto isn't cheap either; an improvement over SV or Manhattan, for sure, but not like Raleigh-Durham or rural Arkansas.

lhorie 7y ago

I moved to Toronto, then to SF. Thought I'd also share my anecdata here. I used to make ~100k/yr CAD (75k/yr USD) when I was in TO around 6 years ago. I bought a house around 7 years ago for 550k. I did a remote stint for a Boulder company for a couple years (~120k/yr USD working from TO), then moved to SF (~200k/yr USD + ~100k/yr equity). I'm a bit out of the loop w/ TO salaries nowadays, but your 170k CAD definitely seems to be on the very high end of the spectrum. A few thoughts: The biggest difference in pay comes from equity. ~100k/yr is pretty normal in SF big tech companies, whereas equity comp in TO is pretty much unheard of unless you're a partner in a company. Caveat: not all SF companies offer liquid equity, or even equity that is worth anything. Taxes are higher for me working in SF (largely because salaries of comparable positions are higher in SF) Living costs depend a lot on whether you have a spouse and/or kids. A bunkbed in SF goes for 1.6k/mo if you're single trying to save up. In TO, you can rent a cheap room for $600/mo. But for families: 2 bed condo is ~48k/yr USD, vs ~24k/yr in similar distance in TO. Another very important point: in SF, a foreigner spouse's ability to work can be extremely tricky (e.g. spouse in non-tech field would often not be able be get a work visa sponsorship at all). Canadians can get a TN visa relatively easily, but the H1B visa required for other foreigners isn't guaranteed. Green card timelines range from 2.5 years to virtually impossible to get. By comparison, getting a work visa in Canada is pretty straightforward, and the path to permanent residence is also relatively easy, regardless of country of origin. Preschool costs ~28k/yr USD per kid in SF, vs ~18k/yr CAD (13k/yr USD) Healthcare in SF costs me ~3.6k USD/yr base (plus copays/other fees depending on how frequently I actually use it) vs free in TO. Dental and vision costs are similar between SF and TO. Goods generally cost less in SF. Milk costs ~$5/gallon USD in SF vs $10/4L CAD ($7 USD) in TO. IMHO: SF is better for saving up while young, Toronto gets pretty attractive once you have a piggy bank to afford housing/build a family.

toephu2 7y ago
You can easily find a room in a house for rent between $1000-1600 in SF. Far better than a "bunkbed". Just check craigslist. But hey, everyone loves to knock expensive SF housing. 28k/yr for preschool in SF is on the high end. That is not the median. Please re-do all your prices with the median, not your handpicked most expensive version.

toephu2 7y ago

How's the weather there though? Can we just stop comparing cities? Everyone loves to complain about the cost of living in SF and always brags about how they could buy a mansion in the midwest. No one cares. It's all about location. There is a reason why California is the most populous state in the union despite it being so expensive (weather and jobs). There is a reason the population in the midwest is so low (lack of jobs and weather mostly).

lhorie 7y ago
> How's the weather there though? Right this moment, they are almost the same (46F in SF vs 37F in Toronto). Toronto winter usually goes between 5F and 40F, but summer is way warmer than SF (between 75F to 90F vs 60F to 70F in SF)
- lotsofpulp 7y ago
  Humidity is just as big a factor as temperature, and anything East if the Rocky Mountains is more humid than west of Rocky Mountains, in my experience.
- refurb 7y ago
  Are you picking temperatures in the middle of the night? 46F is the nightly low in SF, versus being a record warm day in Toronto during the winter.
  - crystaldev 7y ago
    This is the clearance section of HN comments, there are no refunds or returns.
  - lhorie 7y ago
    Yes, that was around 9pm PST. Right now (9am PST) it's 47F in SF vs 38F in TO. Forecast for noon today is 53F in SF vs 38F in Toronto. It is an unusually warm winter in TO this year, though what I said about summers being warmer in TO holds true every year.
- 7y ago

RandyRanderson 7y ago

I recently sold my 2bd/2bath 1100 sqft condo in TO for 1MM CAD. No view. IF you can find a 3bd condo it will cost you WAY more than 900CAD.