6 ms·

Let's not pretend that Canadian cities are a utopia for tech workers. Vancouver and Toronto are insanely expensive and salaries just don't compare to those a hu

Let's not pretend that Canadian cities are a utopia for tech workers. Vancouver and Toronto are insanely expensive and salaries just don't compare to those a hundred kilometres to the south. Hopefully it steadily improves but I'm not hopeful with these tech companies having virtually an unlimited supply and no incentive to boost salaries.

yawaramin 7y ago
Toronto may be expensive but it's not SF-level expensive. Salaries may not compare but you don't have to worry about basic things like healthcare and high-powered weaponry in the streets. Those are just the top two–there are many other reasons to move to Canada than just money.
- ummwhat 7y ago
  High powered weaponry in the street? Someone has given you a very unrealistic conception of California.
  - artificial 7y ago
    I believe the "News" may be thanked for that.
  - jldugger 7y ago
    > Someone has given you a very unrealistic conception of California. That someone might have been a Californian. To pick a recent example: https://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Videos-show-fatal-shooting-in-parking-space-14995714.php https://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Videos-show-fatal-shoot... Hyperbole aside, you are more likely to die from firearms in California than Canada. Most of that, on both sides of the border, is suicide.
    - ramraj07 7y ago
      Studied in Montreal, went to Texas, then to New York. When I left Montreal, people were genuinely worried for me that I'm gonna get shot. Contrary to popular Canadian fear mongering, the US is not a shooting free-for-all, as big as a problem gun violence might be. Of all the variables, getting shot is not something I consider about when deciding between the US and Canada.
- refurb 7y ago
  Toronto house prices are about 3/4 of SF, but salaries are about 1/3 to 1/2. Far harder to own a home in Toronto on a tech salary. And if you get a tech job in SF, you’ve got great health insurance, so not a major obstacle.
  - yawaramin 7y ago
    > And if you get a tech job in SF, you’ve got great health insurance, so not a major obstacle. Yup, as long as you have a job with medical coverage, you're OK. But God forbid you should lose your job and get sick, right? Because then you're screwed.
- tnel77 7y ago
  As someone from a very red, very “high-powered weaponry” friendly area, I grinned ear to ear at your statement. Don’t let a few psychos scare you. Guns are neato.
  - masonic 7y ago
    Imagine the reaction here if London was being discussed and somebody rattled off anecdotes about the growing number of stabbings there.
- rambojazz 7y ago
  What does "high-powered weaponry in the streets" mean? Do you guys have tanks roaming the streets?
  - inferiorhuman 7y ago
    Aside from that one guy who stole a tank a few years back in San Diego, no. But shootings along I-80 are not uncommon (and then there was that driver in Gilroy with a slingshot). That big eviction in Oakland? The county showed up with MRAPs. Oh, I guess that recent Greyhound bus shooting was in California. At least we're not Kentucky. https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/fully-armed-rally-goers-enter-kentuckys-capitol-building-with-zero-resistance-946606/ https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/fully-ar...
- fouc 7y ago
  I understand SF folks are paying $500-1,000/mo for healthcare?
  - nitrogen 7y ago
    Not at high-paying tech companies, those usually cover most or all of insurance.
    - klipt 7y ago
      You're still paying for it, but like payroll taxes it comes out of your salary before you even see it which makes people think it's "free".
      - umeshunni 7y ago
        Sure, and if you live in Canada, you're explicitly paying for healthcare in the form of high taxes.
        klipt 7y ago
        Probably lower than what Americans pay (between 2.9%-3.8% Medicare tax plus insurance premiums). America's healthcare system is really bloated and inefficient compared to developed countries.
        dragonwriter 7y ago
        > Sure, and if you live in Canada, you're explicitly paying for healthcare in the form of high taxes. You mean, “the United States”, not Canada, right? The US pays more (not just per capita, but as a share of GDP, and thus would need higher taxes to pay for it) out of public funds for healthcare than Canada does. See, e.g., https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/health-spending-u-s-compare-countries/#item-u-s-similar-public-spending-private-sector-spending-triple-comparable-countries https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/health-... The US, unlike Canada, also pays a bit more in private funds on healthcare than it does in private funds.
  - 7y ago
- jorblumesea 7y ago
  Housing prices in YVR or Toronto are similarly out of reach, more so in the case of YVR
  - AzzieElbab 7y ago
    Because they are young and do not use it?
- briandear 7y ago
  If you work for an SF company, you don’t have to worry about healthcare either. As far as “high powered weaponry,” that’s just hyperbole. Toronto has a higher homicide rate than New York. https://www.blogto.com/city/2018/06/toronto-homicide-rate-now-higher-new-york/ https://www.blogto.com/city/2018/06/toronto-homicide-rate-no...
- jbarham 7y ago
  Headline from this past weekend in Toronto: "Three dead, two injured in shooting at Airbnb rental in downtown Toronto" (https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2020/01/31/four-injured-possibly-two-in-life-threatening-condition-after-shooting-downtown.html https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2020/01/31/four-injured-pos...)
  - gdilla 7y ago
    you want a cookie? homicide exists in every city. Toronto is relatively safe compared to its American counterparts.
    - refurb 7y ago
      Which American counterparts? Detroit? Kansas City? Camden? Sure. But cities like SF aren’t like those cities at all. Quick google shows 33 homocides in SF and 142 in Toronto. Based on population, that’s 33 per million for SF and 24 for Toronto.
Apocryphon 7y ago
Language barrier aside, Montréal seems like a hidden gem.
- jbarham 7y ago
  But you have to put up with cold winters: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal#Climate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal#Climate
- raverbashing 7y ago
  Which language barrier? There's a fair share of Anglo QCs that will keep speaking English and everything will still work (be workable) in English. It's not hard to learn French to a day to day level though.
  - Apocryphon 7y ago
    I heard that companies are mandated to support bilingualism because of Bill 101, which could be a challenge for startups. But then again, perhaps that can be easily overcome by investing enough in localization.
    - raverbashing 7y ago
      > I heard that companies are mandated to support bilingualism because of Bill 101, which could be a challenge for startups Does not apply to startups, it only applies if you have +50 employees https://www.oqlf.gouv.qc.ca/francisation/entreprises/entreprises_plus/demarche.html https://www.oqlf.gouv.qc.ca/francisation/entreprises/entrepr...
      - thbr99 7y ago
        CAQ govt is working on that. Soon will come a bill which mandates all employers to exclusively recruit French. Currently the ruling govt of Québec is anti immigrant and showing signs of a future separatist referendum. I won't be counting on Québec to stay in Canada in the future.
flukus 7y ago
Everyone here seems to assume that salaries are the biggest factor and ignoring that for many the goal is to gain citizenship in a developed country. For them getting paid well and Canada and becoming a citizen in ? (how many years does it take?) is better than being paid awesomely and waiting decades for the green card lottery.
- eigenvector 7y ago
  That is because most of the people in Silicon Valley discussing Canada are Canadians who immigrated to the US. A Canadian can live in the US forever without worrying much about naturalization. They will always have their Canadian citizenship in their back pocket to fall back on. For people looking to migrate from a developing country to a developed one, the situation is quite different.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

yawaramin 7y ago

Toronto may be expensive but it's not SF-level expensive. Salaries may not compare but you don't have to worry about basic things like healthcare and high-powered weaponry in the streets. Those are just the top two–there are many other reasons to move to Canada than just money.

ummwhat 7y ago
High powered weaponry in the street? Someone has given you a very unrealistic conception of California.
- artificial 7y ago
  I believe the "News" may be thanked for that.
- jldugger 7y ago
  > Someone has given you a very unrealistic conception of California. That someone might have been a Californian. To pick a recent example: https://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Videos-show-fatal-shooting-in-parking-space-14995714.php https://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Videos-show-fatal-shoot... Hyperbole aside, you are more likely to die from firearms in California than Canada. Most of that, on both sides of the border, is suicide.
  - ramraj07 7y ago
    Studied in Montreal, went to Texas, then to New York. When I left Montreal, people were genuinely worried for me that I'm gonna get shot. Contrary to popular Canadian fear mongering, the US is not a shooting free-for-all, as big as a problem gun violence might be. Of all the variables, getting shot is not something I consider about when deciding between the US and Canada.
refurb 7y ago
Toronto house prices are about 3/4 of SF, but salaries are about 1/3 to 1/2. Far harder to own a home in Toronto on a tech salary. And if you get a tech job in SF, you’ve got great health insurance, so not a major obstacle.
- yawaramin 7y ago
  > And if you get a tech job in SF, you’ve got great health insurance, so not a major obstacle. Yup, as long as you have a job with medical coverage, you're OK. But God forbid you should lose your job and get sick, right? Because then you're screwed.
tnel77 7y ago
As someone from a very red, very “high-powered weaponry” friendly area, I grinned ear to ear at your statement. Don’t let a few psychos scare you. Guns are neato.
- masonic 7y ago
  Imagine the reaction here if London was being discussed and somebody rattled off anecdotes about the growing number of stabbings there.
rambojazz 7y ago
What does "high-powered weaponry in the streets" mean? Do you guys have tanks roaming the streets?
- inferiorhuman 7y ago
  Aside from that one guy who stole a tank a few years back in San Diego, no. But shootings along I-80 are not uncommon (and then there was that driver in Gilroy with a slingshot). That big eviction in Oakland? The county showed up with MRAPs. Oh, I guess that recent Greyhound bus shooting was in California. At least we're not Kentucky. https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/fully-armed-rally-goers-enter-kentuckys-capitol-building-with-zero-resistance-946606/ https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/fully-ar...
fouc 7y ago
I understand SF folks are paying $500-1,000/mo for healthcare?
- nitrogen 7y ago
  Not at high-paying tech companies, those usually cover most or all of insurance.
  - klipt 7y ago
    You're still paying for it, but like payroll taxes it comes out of your salary before you even see it which makes people think it's "free".
    - umeshunni 7y ago
      Sure, and if you live in Canada, you're explicitly paying for healthcare in the form of high taxes.
      - klipt 7y ago
        Probably lower than what Americans pay (between 2.9%-3.8% Medicare tax plus insurance premiums). America's healthcare system is really bloated and inefficient compared to developed countries.
      - dragonwriter 7y ago
        > Sure, and if you live in Canada, you're explicitly paying for healthcare in the form of high taxes. You mean, “the United States”, not Canada, right? The US pays more (not just per capita, but as a share of GDP, and thus would need higher taxes to pay for it) out of public funds for healthcare than Canada does. See, e.g., https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/health-spending-u-s-compare-countries/#item-u-s-similar-public-spending-private-sector-spending-triple-comparable-countries https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/health-... The US, unlike Canada, also pays a bit more in private funds on healthcare than it does in private funds.
- 7y ago
jorblumesea 7y ago
Housing prices in YVR or Toronto are similarly out of reach, more so in the case of YVR
- AzzieElbab 7y ago
  Because they are young and do not use it?
briandear 7y ago
If you work for an SF company, you don’t have to worry about healthcare either. As far as “high powered weaponry,” that’s just hyperbole. Toronto has a higher homicide rate than New York. https://www.blogto.com/city/2018/06/toronto-homicide-rate-now-higher-new-york/ https://www.blogto.com/city/2018/06/toronto-homicide-rate-no...
jbarham 7y ago
Headline from this past weekend in Toronto: "Three dead, two injured in shooting at Airbnb rental in downtown Toronto" (https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2020/01/31/four-injured-possibly-two-in-life-threatening-condition-after-shooting-downtown.html https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2020/01/31/four-injured-pos...)
- gdilla 7y ago
  you want a cookie? homicide exists in every city. Toronto is relatively safe compared to its American counterparts.
  - refurb 7y ago
    Which American counterparts? Detroit? Kansas City? Camden? Sure. But cities like SF aren’t like those cities at all. Quick google shows 33 homocides in SF and 142 in Toronto. Based on population, that’s 33 per million for SF and 24 for Toronto.

Apocryphon 7y ago

Language barrier aside, Montréal seems like a hidden gem.

jbarham 7y ago
But you have to put up with cold winters: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal#Climate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal#Climate
raverbashing 7y ago
Which language barrier? There's a fair share of Anglo QCs that will keep speaking English and everything will still work (be workable) in English. It's not hard to learn French to a day to day level though.
- Apocryphon 7y ago
  I heard that companies are mandated to support bilingualism because of Bill 101, which could be a challenge for startups. But then again, perhaps that can be easily overcome by investing enough in localization.
  - raverbashing 7y ago
    > I heard that companies are mandated to support bilingualism because of Bill 101, which could be a challenge for startups Does not apply to startups, it only applies if you have +50 employees https://www.oqlf.gouv.qc.ca/francisation/entreprises/entreprises_plus/demarche.html https://www.oqlf.gouv.qc.ca/francisation/entreprises/entrepr...
    - thbr99 7y ago
      CAQ govt is working on that. Soon will come a bill which mandates all employers to exclusively recruit French. Currently the ruling govt of Québec is anti immigrant and showing signs of a future separatist referendum. I won't be counting on Québec to stay in Canada in the future.

flukus 7y ago

Everyone here seems to assume that salaries are the biggest factor and ignoring that for many the goal is to gain citizenship in a developed country. For them getting paid well and Canada and becoming a citizen in ? (how many years does it take?) is better than being paid awesomely and waiting decades for the green card lottery.

eigenvector 7y ago
That is because most of the people in Silicon Valley discussing Canada are Canadians who immigrated to the US. A Canadian can live in the US forever without worrying much about naturalization. They will always have their Canadian citizenship in their back pocket to fall back on. For people looking to migrate from a developing country to a developed one, the situation is quite different.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]