4 ms·

No, lawsuits require standing. If nobody is actually harmed, there is nothing to sue over. Where this might factor into this ethically is that these building

No, lawsuits require standing. If nobody is actually harmed, there is nothing to sue over. Where this might factor into this ethically is that these building may not have been compliant with the law, but they might not have had problems because they were close enough to legal requirements that people with disabilities did not have actual problems using the facilities, or other situations that in practice made it a non issue. For example, ramps must be 36 inches wide. If it was not possible or feasible for the business to change a ramp that was 34 inches wide, that's unlikely to cause actual problems for someone, so they would have no reason to sue, but if someone is faking a disability to qualify for legal standing, whether they actual had problems is of little consequence, they are already committing fraud to qualify, what's a bit more to fake a situation where they were caused harm?

Pfhreak 7y ago
I'm looking at the picture in the article. You absolutely could not get a wheelchair up to that door without people carrying it. I'm aware of standing, and in this case it seems pretty clear cut.
- kbenson 7y ago
  >>> 1,400 businesses were potentially breaking the law and denying access to people with disabilities, shouldn't they be the subject of suits? > I'm looking at the picture in the article. You absolutely could not get a wheelchair up to that door without people carrying it. I'm aware of standing, and in this case it seems pretty clear cut. In this case? Maybe. You made a statement about all the cases they brought. I responded to that general statement, not this specific case. It's possible every suit they brought against a business was for a situation where people with disabilities really were harmed. If that's the situation, I'm not sure why someone with a real disability didn't bring the cases then. There are reasons why people are required to have standing to bring a case. I think it's pretty obvious what some of those reasons are.
  - erichocean 7y ago
    Not to mention, there's literally the exact same business two blocks away that IS ADA-compliant. This has nothing to do with not being able to buy coffee, and everything to do with hurting the business in the hopes of getting a large settlement.
kevin_thibedeau 7y ago
ADA has affordances for "nearly compliant" facilities. § 36.304 Removal of barriers. (d) Relationship to alterations requirements of subpart D of this part. (3) If, as a result of compliance with the alterations requirements specified in paragraph (d)(1) and (d)(2) of this section, the measures required to remove a barrier would not be readily achievable, a public accommodation may take other readily achievable measures to remove the barrier that do not fully comply with the specified requirements. Such measures include, for example, providing a ramp with a steeper slope or widening a doorway to a narrower width than that mandated by the alterations requirements. No measure shall be taken, however, that poses a significant risk to the health or safety of individuals with disabilities or others.
- kbenson 7y ago
  Thanks for the additional information. Do you know what "readily achievable" means legally? I suspect it means "can not feasibly be accomplish on the property in question", such as if there's no way to widen a door given load bearing walls, or if a ramp of the appropriate specifications would go past the edge of the property. I imagine "it's too costly to do and keep this business functioning" is not a valid reason, given the examples we are seeing of businesses closing. What I think it comes down to is whether a real person with disabilities thinks it's worth bringing and/or continuing the suit. Someone bringing a suit to make their life better (and the lives of people in similar circumstances as well), might take things into consideration like whether another business is likely to use that location any time soon if a large outlay is required to fix the problem, and whether removing a local business for everyone is a good solution. Someone bringing suit just for monetary gain (which can be done by someone with a real claim, I understand) may be less likely to do so, resulting in a net loss for the community.
  - stordoff 7y ago
    > Do you know what "readily achievable" means legally? It's quite clearly defined in statute (and includes cost): > The term "readily achievable" means easily accomplishable and able to be carried out without much difficulty or expense. In determining whether an action is readily achievable, factors to be considered include— > (A) the nature and cost of the action needed under this chapter; > (B) the overall financial resources of the facility or facilities involved in the action; the number of persons employed at such facility; the effect on expenses and resources, or the impact otherwise of such action upon the operation of the facility; > (C)the overall financial resources of the covered entity; the overall size of the business of a covered entity with respect to the number of its employees; the number, type, and location of its facilities; and > (D) the type of operation or operations of the covered entity, including the composition, structure, and functions of the workforce of such entity; the geographic separateness, administrative or fiscal relationship of the facility or facilities in question to the covered entity. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/12181 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/12181

Pfhreak 7y ago

I'm looking at the picture in the article. You absolutely could not get a wheelchair up to that door without people carrying it. I'm aware of standing, and in this case it seems pretty clear cut.

kbenson 7y ago
>>> 1,400 businesses were potentially breaking the law and denying access to people with disabilities, shouldn't they be the subject of suits? > I'm looking at the picture in the article. You absolutely could not get a wheelchair up to that door without people carrying it. I'm aware of standing, and in this case it seems pretty clear cut. In this case? Maybe. You made a statement about all the cases they brought. I responded to that general statement, not this specific case. It's possible every suit they brought against a business was for a situation where people with disabilities really were harmed. If that's the situation, I'm not sure why someone with a real disability didn't bring the cases then. There are reasons why people are required to have standing to bring a case. I think it's pretty obvious what some of those reasons are.
- erichocean 7y ago
  Not to mention, there's literally the exact same business two blocks away that IS ADA-compliant. This has nothing to do with not being able to buy coffee, and everything to do with hurting the business in the hopes of getting a large settlement.

kevin_thibedeau 7y ago

ADA has affordances for "nearly compliant" facilities. § 36.304 Removal of barriers. (d) Relationship to alterations requirements of subpart D of this part. (3) If, as a result of compliance with the alterations requirements specified in paragraph (d)(1) and (d)(2) of this section, the measures required to remove a barrier would not be readily achievable, a public accommodation may take other readily achievable measures to remove the barrier that do not fully comply with the specified requirements. Such measures include, for example, providing a ramp with a steeper slope or widening a doorway to a narrower width than that mandated by the alterations requirements. No measure shall be taken, however, that poses a significant risk to the health or safety of individuals with disabilities or others.

kbenson 7y ago
Thanks for the additional information. Do you know what "readily achievable" means legally? I suspect it means "can not feasibly be accomplish on the property in question", such as if there's no way to widen a door given load bearing walls, or if a ramp of the appropriate specifications would go past the edge of the property. I imagine "it's too costly to do and keep this business functioning" is not a valid reason, given the examples we are seeing of businesses closing. What I think it comes down to is whether a real person with disabilities thinks it's worth bringing and/or continuing the suit. Someone bringing a suit to make their life better (and the lives of people in similar circumstances as well), might take things into consideration like whether another business is likely to use that location any time soon if a large outlay is required to fix the problem, and whether removing a local business for everyone is a good solution. Someone bringing suit just for monetary gain (which can be done by someone with a real claim, I understand) may be less likely to do so, resulting in a net loss for the community.
- stordoff 7y ago
  > Do you know what "readily achievable" means legally? It's quite clearly defined in statute (and includes cost): > The term "readily achievable" means easily accomplishable and able to be carried out without much difficulty or expense. In determining whether an action is readily achievable, factors to be considered include— > (A) the nature and cost of the action needed under this chapter; > (B) the overall financial resources of the facility or facilities involved in the action; the number of persons employed at such facility; the effect on expenses and resources, or the impact otherwise of such action upon the operation of the facility; > (C)the overall financial resources of the covered entity; the overall size of the business of a covered entity with respect to the number of its employees; the number, type, and location of its facilities; and > (D) the type of operation or operations of the covered entity, including the composition, structure, and functions of the workforce of such entity; the geographic separateness, administrative or fiscal relationship of the facility or facilities in question to the covered entity. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/12181 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/12181