4 ms·

$100,000 to replace stairs with a wheel chair ramp? Were more fixes necessary than just this, or is that really how much it costs to create a wheel chair ramp?

Pfhreak 7y ago
It looks like they'd have to redo a significant portion of the front of the building to make it work, from the street up to the patio, then up again to the door. (Which, itself, may need replacing.) My guess is that $100,000 is a rounded up, order of magnitude estimate rather than a specific amount.
rauhl 7y ago
Even for California that seems a bit … steep (pun intended). Sure, there’s a relatively high minimum wage. And maybe one has to get planning approval. And maybe an engineer’s sign-off. And possibly get some sort of union labour force to install it. And maybe an environmental impact study? Still doesn’t make sense that a wheelchair ramp would incur three times the U.S. median income. Or maybe it does, and that explains why it’s so difficult to get anything done.
duskwuff 7y ago
From the pictures in the article, it looks like there are at least two flights of stairs involved, and the one near the door is too narrow to add a ramp that a wheelchair can climb. (Simply putting a ramp over the stairs wouldn't cut it; it'd be too steep to roll up.) I can certainly imagine how adding ramps to this building approach could require some major restructuring.
crooked-v 7y ago
Even motorized weatherproofed wheelchair lifts cost an order of magnitude less than that.
bluedino 7y ago
You also need to redo things like the bathrooms.
morio 7y ago
Unfortunately $100K is not that much in the Bay Area. I had to spend $50K total 10 years ago to make my side walk ADA compliant (as it is front of a bus stop) when I bought my place in SF. They would not issue any further building permits otherwise. And that was a fairly simple job without any stairs.
- lightedman 7y ago
  "I had to spend $50K total 10 years ago to make my side walk ADA compliant (as it is front of a bus stop) when I bought my place in SF. " You got had. That sidwealk is public easement and if they demanded ADA work for a public fixture (bus stop) it was on them to pay for it, not you.
  - morio 7y ago
    I wish that this is how it worked. The sidewalk was in 'significant disrepair' and any repairs/replacements have to be ADA compliant: https://www.sfpublicworks.org/services/permits/sidewalk-repair https://www.sfpublicworks.org/services/permits/sidewalk-repa...
  - ProfessorLayton 7y ago
    I'm not sure about that, homeowners are typically responsable for the sidewalk in front of their homes, even for damage caused by public works such as trees, which are maintained by the city. That being said, 50k buys a decent amount of sidewalk even in the SFBAY, especially if one is merely repairing/grinding down certain areas for pedestrians, and lots aren't particularly wide in SF.
fernly 7y ago
From retrofitting an older building some years ago, I well recall that an ADA compliant ramp has at most a 1:12 pitch (one inch rise per foot) and must provide I forget how many square feet of flat landing outside the door (to allow opening the door after reaching the level of it). So if your doorsill is, say, 2 feet above grade -- not uncommon, 3 steps -- that's a 24-foot long ramp minimum. It's hard to tell from the pictures in the article, but it looks like there's more like a four-foot rise to that coffee shop. That's a 48-foot ramp, of a certain width, with a railing. Few existing buildings have room for such a ramp on a straight run. So, easy fix you think, we fold the ramp in a hairpin. But wait; wherever it changes direction you must have a level landing of I forget how many square feet, to allow the chair and the attendant pushing it, to turn the corner. By the time you add a compliant ramp to an existing building you are likely to have covered a lot of ground with ramp. If you had that much ground to spare, and can give up the landscaping or outdoor patio it once was. The alternative is a wheelchair lift. Like a little outdoor elevator platform. These are fairly expensive to buy and install, but require much less space.
fiblye 7y ago
Take a look at ADA requirements regarding ramps: https://www.adawheelchairramps.com/wheelchair-ramps/ada-guidelines.aspx https://www.adawheelchairramps.com/wheelchair-ramps/ada-guid... You need at least 30 feet of ramp for a 2 and a half foot incline. I don't know about the environment this coffee shop is set in, but these standards would make it impossible for non-corporate shops to exist in many cities around the world. Most cities don't have 30 feet of space outside open and free for building ramps that (being generous) 0.1% of every store's potential customers will use. You can compact that 30 feet with a couple bends, but then you vastly increase width of the sidewalk space required. Assuming this building doesn't have a mass expanse of free space extending around its premises, it probably required restructuring of the building itself, which takes quite a bit of time and money, as well as lost business while this single person waits for their coffee or $60,000.
haroldl 7y ago
Sounds like other fixes were needed: "Crema Coffee owner June Tran said bringing her 100-year-old building up to code would cost $100,000."
droithomme 7y ago
The permits are likely $70,000.

Pfhreak 7y ago

It looks like they'd have to redo a significant portion of the front of the building to make it work, from the street up to the patio, then up again to the door. (Which, itself, may need replacing.) My guess is that $100,000 is a rounded up, order of magnitude estimate rather than a specific amount.

rauhl 7y ago

Even for California that seems a bit … steep (pun intended). Sure, there’s a relatively high minimum wage. And maybe one has to get planning approval. And maybe an engineer’s sign-off. And possibly get some sort of union labour force to install it. And maybe an environmental impact study? Still doesn’t make sense that a wheelchair ramp would incur three times the U.S. median income. Or maybe it does, and that explains why it’s so difficult to get anything done.

duskwuff 7y ago

From the pictures in the article, it looks like there are at least two flights of stairs involved, and the one near the door is too narrow to add a ramp that a wheelchair can climb. (Simply putting a ramp over the stairs wouldn't cut it; it'd be too steep to roll up.) I can certainly imagine how adding ramps to this building approach could require some major restructuring.

crooked-v 7y ago

Even motorized weatherproofed wheelchair lifts cost an order of magnitude less than that.

bluedino 7y ago

You also need to redo things like the bathrooms.

morio 7y ago

Unfortunately $100K is not that much in the Bay Area. I had to spend $50K total 10 years ago to make my side walk ADA compliant (as it is front of a bus stop) when I bought my place in SF. They would not issue any further building permits otherwise. And that was a fairly simple job without any stairs.

lightedman 7y ago
"I had to spend $50K total 10 years ago to make my side walk ADA compliant (as it is front of a bus stop) when I bought my place in SF. " You got had. That sidwealk is public easement and if they demanded ADA work for a public fixture (bus stop) it was on them to pay for it, not you.
- morio 7y ago
  I wish that this is how it worked. The sidewalk was in 'significant disrepair' and any repairs/replacements have to be ADA compliant: https://www.sfpublicworks.org/services/permits/sidewalk-repair https://www.sfpublicworks.org/services/permits/sidewalk-repa...
- ProfessorLayton 7y ago
  I'm not sure about that, homeowners are typically responsable for the sidewalk in front of their homes, even for damage caused by public works such as trees, which are maintained by the city. That being said, 50k buys a decent amount of sidewalk even in the SFBAY, especially if one is merely repairing/grinding down certain areas for pedestrians, and lots aren't particularly wide in SF.

fernly 7y ago

From retrofitting an older building some years ago, I well recall that an ADA compliant ramp has at most a 1:12 pitch (one inch rise per foot) and must provide I forget how many square feet of flat landing outside the door (to allow opening the door after reaching the level of it). So if your doorsill is, say, 2 feet above grade -- not uncommon, 3 steps -- that's a 24-foot long ramp minimum. It's hard to tell from the pictures in the article, but it looks like there's more like a four-foot rise to that coffee shop. That's a 48-foot ramp, of a certain width, with a railing. Few existing buildings have room for such a ramp on a straight run. So, easy fix you think, we fold the ramp in a hairpin. But wait; wherever it changes direction you must have a level landing of I forget how many square feet, to allow the chair and the attendant pushing it, to turn the corner. By the time you add a compliant ramp to an existing building you are likely to have covered a lot of ground with ramp. If you had that much ground to spare, and can give up the landscaping or outdoor patio it once was. The alternative is a wheelchair lift. Like a little outdoor elevator platform. These are fairly expensive to buy and install, but require much less space.

fiblye 7y ago

Take a look at ADA requirements regarding ramps: https://www.adawheelchairramps.com/wheelchair-ramps/ada-guidelines.aspx https://www.adawheelchairramps.com/wheelchair-ramps/ada-guid... You need at least 30 feet of ramp for a 2 and a half foot incline. I don't know about the environment this coffee shop is set in, but these standards would make it impossible for non-corporate shops to exist in many cities around the world. Most cities don't have 30 feet of space outside open and free for building ramps that (being generous) 0.1% of every store's potential customers will use. You can compact that 30 feet with a couple bends, but then you vastly increase width of the sidewalk space required. Assuming this building doesn't have a mass expanse of free space extending around its premises, it probably required restructuring of the building itself, which takes quite a bit of time and money, as well as lost business while this single person waits for their coffee or $60,000.

haroldl 7y ago

Sounds like other fixes were needed: "Crema Coffee owner June Tran said bringing her 100-year-old building up to code would cost $100,000."

droithomme 7y ago

The permits are likely $70,000.