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The system isn't AI based... It's currently based on static programming. This is why a development team would have to think of every possible scenario that coul

The system isn't AI based... It's currently based on static programming. This is why a development team would have to think of every possible scenario that could happen on roads to make self driving cars really work. You'd have to ask all kinds of wild questions too like: "What if kids played a prank and re-painted road lanes on a highway at 50MPH?" "What if a sand storm happened?" "What would the car do if a tire blows out at 55MPH?" "Could the car detect a Tsunami is coming and abandon a trip assignment?" And that's just a tiny tiny sample of scenarios necessary. Some AI elements may exist within the network, but I'm pretty sure they are only running on the back end in terms of maps. The computing power to really permit the car to run autonomously, and to "adapt and learn" about driving only comes with experience and it also takes a lot more computing power and storage than your home computer can handle, much less the components in Tesla cars. Launching Self Driving Cars so close to their infancy is pretty reckless if you ask me. People are being paid off and buried online by paid staff online to keep quiet about all the accidents and issues with them. To make self riding cars reliable at this point in time, they pretty much need perfect circumstances, and they need to operate on fixed, predictable, and well maintained paths... Kind of like a train. They should really work on this technology in mass transit, shipping, big industry and on planes before pushing out thousands of smaller vehicles with it. There is plenty of proof that development teams aren't and may never be flawlessness enough to make error free updates, if you don't believe that, then just ask Boeing.

Erlich_Bachman 7y ago
> than your home computer can handle, much less the components in Tesla cars. Ehm a recent Tesla has very powerful specialized hardware, developed in-house, which is much more powerful than a commodity home PC with expensive GPUs. You might want to do some basic research before you make such claims... > The system isn't AI based... It's currently based on static programming A large neural network is used to make many of the decisions, as well as to run the perception of the sensors/cameras. Unclear what you mean by "AI", but neural networks are usually covered in the "AI" term by researchers and engineers in this field. > may never be flawlessness enough to make error free updates It seems that you are new in this argument, because this point has been rebutted so many times in the past, but here goes: it does not have to be flawless, it just has to statistically cause fewer accidents per kilometer/year than what human drivers cause in a similar situation (which is already non-zero, and in some countries actually quite high).
- xkjkls 7y ago
  > It seems that you are new in this argument, because this point has been rebutted so many times in the past, but here goes: it does not have to be flawless, it just has to statistically cause fewer accidents per kilometer/year than what human drivers cause in a similar situation (which is already non-zero, and in some countries actually quite high). Yes, but they need a process in place to insure that that is true, and a process in place that insures that is true with each new update. They are remarkably cagey with statistics about AutoPilot. Elon claims that Autopilot is currently much safer than human driving, yet the only statistics released are biased comparisons between Autopilot miles, which are almost exclusively on highways, and general auto statistics (where crashes occur most frequently off highways). If Elon really wanted to show the software effectiveness of current Autopilot, he could release the crash statistics of customers who purchased Autopilot and customers who did not, as many people have requested of him. He has thus far refused to.
- winternett 7y ago
  There is Network Dependent AI... Not independent processing power on board each vehicle to make autonomous decisions. I was referring to AI that operates independently of a network connection. There are multiple scenarios in which a network connection can become unavailable. I'm not here to disparage Tesla, I really don't care what company creates self driving cars. Most people are acting like Tesla are the only ones.
  - maccam94 7y ago
    Tesla vehicles equipped with the Full Self Driving package do have an onboard computer that runs neutral networks in real time to process sensor data and control the vehicle. https://ww.electrek.co/2019/04/22/tesla-full-self-driving-computer-details/ https://ww.electrek.co/2019/04/22/tesla-full-self-driving-co...
  - Erlich_Bachman 7y ago
    A Tesla autopilot works offline without any network connection. (I mean of course the driving itself, not the updates.) So what exactly are you talking about?
quantdev 7y ago
The system is absolutely AI based today. There is no hardcoding like this. Hardware 3 in Tesla cars is an ASIC meant to run neural nets (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Autopilot#Hardware_3 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Autopilot#Hardware_3). Why are you so confidently stating things you don't know about?
- Barrin92 7y ago
  I'm not really sure what the hardware link you provided has to do with anything but plenty of rule-based heuristics are used in state of the art autonomous driving systems. Machine learning systems have taken over the image processing and classification parts, semantic segmentation, object recognition and so on but traffic rules or emergency behaviour or hard speed limits are not learned. the OP is wrong though in somehow classifying this as 'not AI'. Just because ML has become an important part of the equation doesn't mean we have thrown control theory and logical constraints out of the window.
  - winternett 7y ago
    The current AI is running rudimentary calculations based on what is truly required for flawless operation... The type of processing that is necessary to operate like a GOOD human driver is nowhere near what currently exists... Sure there are bad drivers out there, and that's why autonomous vehicles would need to be EXCEPTIONALLY good... Not just good enough for a few demos on youtube. If a company's test cycles were good enough to warrant reliability and safety promises, the window on the CyberTruck would have never broken.... This is how companies work, they over promise and under-deliver, this time it affects everyone's safety, including safety of those who don't buy them. I'm not saying the strides aren't impressive, I'm saying I wouldn't feel safe having this experimental technology forced upon me knowing the potential for historically complex human factors.
- winternett 7y ago
  From your own cited source: At this level, the car can act autonomously but requires the driver to be prepared to take control at a moment's notice.[103][104] HW1 is suitable only on limited-access highways, and sometimes will fail to detect lane markings and disengage itself. In urban driving the system will not read traffic signals or obey stop signs. This system also does not detect pedestrians or cyclists,[105] and while AP1 detects motorcycles,[106] there has been two instances of AP rear-ending motorcycles.[107] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Autopilot#Hardware_3 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Autopilot#Hardware_3
bryanlarsen 7y ago
This is much less true than it used to be with the current rewrite of the autopilot software: https://cleantechnica.com/2020/01/31/timestamped-guide-to-part-2-of-elon-musk-interview-by-third-row-tesla/ https://cleantechnica.com/2020/01/31/timestamped-guide-to-pa...
baddox 7y ago
> The system isn't AI based... It's currently based on static programming. This is why a development team would have to think of every possible scenario that could happen on roads to make self driving cars really work. I'm not really sure what this dichotomy is that you're describing. It certainly looks like they're using computer vision to detect the bounding boxes of cars, and the field of computer vision is widely described as being either a subset of artificial intelligence or a cross-disciplinary approach combining artificial intelligence with a handful of other fields. > You'd have to ask all kinds of wild questions too like: > "What if kids played a prank and re-painted road lanes on a highway at 50MPH?" This sort of thing actually happens with real humans, and the legal system has to (and does) handle it. In the 1990s three people removed a stop sign as a prank and were sentenced to 15 years in prison after a human driver drove into the intersection and hit another vehicle, killing three teenagers. https://www.nytimes.com/1997/06/21/us/3-are-sentenced-to-15-years-in-fatal-stop-sign-prank.html https://www.nytimes.com/1997/06/21/us/3-are-sentenced-to-15-.... The fact that it's possible for humans to illegally modify road markings and end up killing people is a challenge and a tragedy, but it's not anything new or particularly game-changing for self-driving cars. > "What if a sand storm happened?" That sounds like one of the easiest possible problems. What do humans do when they suddenly have nearly zero visibility on a road? In most places I assume they are supposed to (and do) pull over to the side of the road and stop. I've been in rain that is so heavy that all the nearby cars on the highway had to pull over. > "What would the car do if a tire blows out at 55MPH?" Again, that's another thing that happens a lot, and probably causes a lot of injuries and deaths. Again, I'm not minimizing that loss, but it's not some huge "gotcha" for self-driving cars. In this particular example, I would expect self-driving cars to be vastly better than most human drivers in this situation at maintaining control while pulling over and stopping.
- thedance 7y ago
  > What do humans do when they suddenly have nearly zero visibility on a road? They cause gigantic pile-ups, because humans are unbelievably bad at driving. https://abcnews.go.com/US/50-people-injured-69-vehicle-pileup-virginia-interstate/story?id=67884949 https://abcnews.go.com/US/50-people-injured-69-vehicle-pileu...
- 7y ago

Erlich_Bachman 7y ago

> than your home computer can handle, much less the components in Tesla cars. Ehm a recent Tesla has very powerful specialized hardware, developed in-house, which is much more powerful than a commodity home PC with expensive GPUs. You might want to do some basic research before you make such claims... > The system isn't AI based... It's currently based on static programming A large neural network is used to make many of the decisions, as well as to run the perception of the sensors/cameras. Unclear what you mean by "AI", but neural networks are usually covered in the "AI" term by researchers and engineers in this field. > may never be flawlessness enough to make error free updates It seems that you are new in this argument, because this point has been rebutted so many times in the past, but here goes: it does not have to be flawless, it just has to statistically cause fewer accidents per kilometer/year than what human drivers cause in a similar situation (which is already non-zero, and in some countries actually quite high).

xkjkls 7y ago
> It seems that you are new in this argument, because this point has been rebutted so many times in the past, but here goes: it does not have to be flawless, it just has to statistically cause fewer accidents per kilometer/year than what human drivers cause in a similar situation (which is already non-zero, and in some countries actually quite high). Yes, but they need a process in place to insure that that is true, and a process in place that insures that is true with each new update. They are remarkably cagey with statistics about AutoPilot. Elon claims that Autopilot is currently much safer than human driving, yet the only statistics released are biased comparisons between Autopilot miles, which are almost exclusively on highways, and general auto statistics (where crashes occur most frequently off highways). If Elon really wanted to show the software effectiveness of current Autopilot, he could release the crash statistics of customers who purchased Autopilot and customers who did not, as many people have requested of him. He has thus far refused to.
winternett 7y ago
There is Network Dependent AI... Not independent processing power on board each vehicle to make autonomous decisions. I was referring to AI that operates independently of a network connection. There are multiple scenarios in which a network connection can become unavailable. I'm not here to disparage Tesla, I really don't care what company creates self driving cars. Most people are acting like Tesla are the only ones.
- maccam94 7y ago
  Tesla vehicles equipped with the Full Self Driving package do have an onboard computer that runs neutral networks in real time to process sensor data and control the vehicle. https://ww.electrek.co/2019/04/22/tesla-full-self-driving-computer-details/ https://ww.electrek.co/2019/04/22/tesla-full-self-driving-co...
- Erlich_Bachman 7y ago
  A Tesla autopilot works offline without any network connection. (I mean of course the driving itself, not the updates.) So what exactly are you talking about?

quantdev 7y ago

The system is absolutely AI based today. There is no hardcoding like this. Hardware 3 in Tesla cars is an ASIC meant to run neural nets (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Autopilot#Hardware_3 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Autopilot#Hardware_3). Why are you so confidently stating things you don't know about?

Barrin92 7y ago
I'm not really sure what the hardware link you provided has to do with anything but plenty of rule-based heuristics are used in state of the art autonomous driving systems. Machine learning systems have taken over the image processing and classification parts, semantic segmentation, object recognition and so on but traffic rules or emergency behaviour or hard speed limits are not learned. the OP is wrong though in somehow classifying this as 'not AI'. Just because ML has become an important part of the equation doesn't mean we have thrown control theory and logical constraints out of the window.
- winternett 7y ago
  The current AI is running rudimentary calculations based on what is truly required for flawless operation... The type of processing that is necessary to operate like a GOOD human driver is nowhere near what currently exists... Sure there are bad drivers out there, and that's why autonomous vehicles would need to be EXCEPTIONALLY good... Not just good enough for a few demos on youtube. If a company's test cycles were good enough to warrant reliability and safety promises, the window on the CyberTruck would have never broken.... This is how companies work, they over promise and under-deliver, this time it affects everyone's safety, including safety of those who don't buy them. I'm not saying the strides aren't impressive, I'm saying I wouldn't feel safe having this experimental technology forced upon me knowing the potential for historically complex human factors.
winternett 7y ago
From your own cited source: At this level, the car can act autonomously but requires the driver to be prepared to take control at a moment's notice.[103][104] HW1 is suitable only on limited-access highways, and sometimes will fail to detect lane markings and disengage itself. In urban driving the system will not read traffic signals or obey stop signs. This system also does not detect pedestrians or cyclists,[105] and while AP1 detects motorcycles,[106] there has been two instances of AP rear-ending motorcycles.[107] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Autopilot#Hardware_3 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Autopilot#Hardware_3

bryanlarsen 7y ago

This is much less true than it used to be with the current rewrite of the autopilot software: https://cleantechnica.com/2020/01/31/timestamped-guide-to-part-2-of-elon-musk-interview-by-third-row-tesla/ https://cleantechnica.com/2020/01/31/timestamped-guide-to-pa...

baddox 7y ago

> The system isn't AI based... It's currently based on static programming. This is why a development team would have to think of every possible scenario that could happen on roads to make self driving cars really work. I'm not really sure what this dichotomy is that you're describing. It certainly looks like they're using computer vision to detect the bounding boxes of cars, and the field of computer vision is widely described as being either a subset of artificial intelligence or a cross-disciplinary approach combining artificial intelligence with a handful of other fields. > You'd have to ask all kinds of wild questions too like: > "What if kids played a prank and re-painted road lanes on a highway at 50MPH?" This sort of thing actually happens with real humans, and the legal system has to (and does) handle it. In the 1990s three people removed a stop sign as a prank and were sentenced to 15 years in prison after a human driver drove into the intersection and hit another vehicle, killing three teenagers. https://www.nytimes.com/1997/06/21/us/3-are-sentenced-to-15-years-in-fatal-stop-sign-prank.html https://www.nytimes.com/1997/06/21/us/3-are-sentenced-to-15-.... The fact that it's possible for humans to illegally modify road markings and end up killing people is a challenge and a tragedy, but it's not anything new or particularly game-changing for self-driving cars. > "What if a sand storm happened?" That sounds like one of the easiest possible problems. What do humans do when they suddenly have nearly zero visibility on a road? In most places I assume they are supposed to (and do) pull over to the side of the road and stop. I've been in rain that is so heavy that all the nearby cars on the highway had to pull over. > "What would the car do if a tire blows out at 55MPH?" Again, that's another thing that happens a lot, and probably causes a lot of injuries and deaths. Again, I'm not minimizing that loss, but it's not some huge "gotcha" for self-driving cars. In this particular example, I would expect self-driving cars to be vastly better than most human drivers in this situation at maintaining control while pulling over and stopping.

thedance 7y ago
> What do humans do when they suddenly have nearly zero visibility on a road? They cause gigantic pile-ups, because humans are unbelievably bad at driving. https://abcnews.go.com/US/50-people-injured-69-vehicle-pileup-virginia-interstate/story?id=67884949 https://abcnews.go.com/US/50-people-injured-69-vehicle-pileu...
7y ago