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I've managed to keep from being incessantly downvoted in my unpopular opinions by providing well documented arguments (logos, with an occasional appeal to ethos

by ibsulon 18y ago

I've managed to keep from being incessantly downvoted in my unpopular opinions by providing well documented arguments (logos, with an occasional appeal to ethos of sources), tying to personal credibility or experience (ethos), or providing personal experience developing an empathic response, then tying into into the main argument. (pathos -> logos, or just pathos.) The problem isn't disagreement - it's not developing ethos, pathos, or logos into the appropriate argument. The more controversial the opinion, the more that one must work to develop these three qualities, rather than depending on just one. I also work to expose the weaknesses of my own argument, admit them, but explain why they are superior to the more conventional alternative. I find that when this fails for myself, it's often because my perspective is lacking, and I need to rethink my argument. On reddit, I'll still usually find an unpopular opinion at 3 or 4 points. There's likely some downmodding done, but most people will leave it alone if it's a proper argument. (Some arguments, of course, are out of bounds. The emotional appeal is too strong. Abortion in a pro-life forum, for example. I haven't had that problem in most major forums.)

gaika 18y ago
This is a great strategy for comments. How does it help when you want to post a story on reddit that you think is important but unfortunately is highly controversial? (Hacker News doesn't have downvote for stories for exactly this reason, thanks!) How does it help when people are downvoting you not only for your opinion but for who you are? Karma is a great tool to manage trolls and signal / noise. Unfortunately in real world it is also used to silence opponents. And it is pretty effective at that. I want to change that.
- stcredzero 18y ago
  If you made downvotes more scarce, then people would only use them if they absolutely had to. Maybe they would prioritize trolls and noise? Somehow, I think we're not quite that wise.
- ibsulon 18y ago
  I don't tend to post stories. :) If I were looking for posts, I would likely post it in a personal blog then write my own interpretation, using effective argumentation, re-presenting the arguments targeted to a more critical audience. That is a lot of commitment, though. However, an argument can do more harm than good if it is not written for a general audience.
anewaccountname 18y ago
Well thought out arguments don't matter; we are supposed to downvote anything we disagree with: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117171 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117171 (from pg himself).
- rewind 18y ago
  Nice reference. I'll bet you most people (myself included) now assume that disagreeing with someone is not the point of downvoting them. Personally, I downvote when I think something is inappropriate or doesn't add to the discussion (i.e. "me too" responses). Considering that PG indicates that a downvote is okay for disagreement, but that his post is from about four months ago, I wonder if there even exists a "standard" for downvoting behavior now. I've been visiting the site for awhile but only created an account a few months ago, so I didn't pay too much attention to this before I joined; I haven't been actively participating long enough to know how downvoting behavior has changed over time. Is there a new or updated guideline for downvoting? Either way, as I've mentioned before, guidelines are just that: you can't force someone to not downvote inappropriately. It's just the nature of this sort of community. I think if people focussed more on not posting things that are out of line that get hella-downvoted instead of worrying about whether they have hit four digits of positive karma, things might be a little more laid back and people wouldn't stress so much. Either way, as long as there is karma, people will bitch about it one way or another ;-) (Note: not dissing four-digit karma. If you have that much, you've earned it. Just saying that maybe people worry a bit too much about getting positive karma instead of avoiding negative karma.)
stcredzero 18y ago
Pathos, Logos, Ethos. The 3 Musketeers! All for One, and One for All!

by ibsulon 18y ago

gaika 18y ago

This is a great strategy for comments. How does it help when you want to post a story on reddit that you think is important but unfortunately is highly controversial? (Hacker News doesn't have downvote for stories for exactly this reason, thanks!) How does it help when people are downvoting you not only for your opinion but for who you are? Karma is a great tool to manage trolls and signal / noise. Unfortunately in real world it is also used to silence opponents. And it is pretty effective at that. I want to change that.

stcredzero 18y ago
If you made downvotes more scarce, then people would only use them if they absolutely had to. Maybe they would prioritize trolls and noise? Somehow, I think we're not quite that wise.
ibsulon 18y ago
I don't tend to post stories. :) If I were looking for posts, I would likely post it in a personal blog then write my own interpretation, using effective argumentation, re-presenting the arguments targeted to a more critical audience. That is a lot of commitment, though. However, an argument can do more harm than good if it is not written for a general audience.

anewaccountname 18y ago

Well thought out arguments don't matter; we are supposed to downvote anything we disagree with: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117171 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117171 (from pg himself).

rewind 18y ago
Nice reference. I'll bet you most people (myself included) now assume that disagreeing with someone is not the point of downvoting them. Personally, I downvote when I think something is inappropriate or doesn't add to the discussion (i.e. "me too" responses). Considering that PG indicates that a downvote is okay for disagreement, but that his post is from about four months ago, I wonder if there even exists a "standard" for downvoting behavior now. I've been visiting the site for awhile but only created an account a few months ago, so I didn't pay too much attention to this before I joined; I haven't been actively participating long enough to know how downvoting behavior has changed over time. Is there a new or updated guideline for downvoting? Either way, as I've mentioned before, guidelines are just that: you can't force someone to not downvote inappropriately. It's just the nature of this sort of community. I think if people focussed more on not posting things that are out of line that get hella-downvoted instead of worrying about whether they have hit four digits of positive karma, things might be a little more laid back and people wouldn't stress so much. Either way, as long as there is karma, people will bitch about it one way or another ;-) (Note: not dissing four-digit karma. If you have that much, you've earned it. Just saying that maybe people worry a bit too much about getting positive karma instead of avoiding negative karma.)

stcredzero 18y ago

Pathos, Logos, Ethos. The 3 Musketeers! All for One, and One for All!