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Not only that, but the cynic in my says... what SHOULD you be spending your billions on? Carefully grabbing more billions and political influence/power so you c

Not only that, but the cynic in my says... what SHOULD you be spending your billions on? Carefully grabbing more billions and political influence/power so you can have more influence/power? Or, you know, try to make humanity better?

Devagamster 7y ago
I'm not sure Mars is the most effective way to make humanity better with your billions
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  The tools you'd need on Mars are: Electric mobility and energy storage, launch vehicles to cheaply lift satellite constellations to Earth orbit (which just so happen to heavy lift what you need for a Mars transit), cheap tunnel boring to reduce transportation congestion on Earth, but also to build underground (radiation protected) habitats on Mars. If you have a hobby you love (go to Mars, die on Mars), it doesn't hurt to get rich building the infra your hobby needs. You will need those funds to buy services from your companies for your hobby.
valgor 7y ago
My reply to thoughts like these are always the same: In the US we spend an insulting amount of money on military and defense. The amount of money Spacex is spending is nothing in comparison. If one is truly interested in helping humanity, then one should be advocating moving funds from the military to any branch of science or social welfare. To nitpick the small difference someone like Musk could make by doing something else is to not have your priorities set.
- keanzu 7y ago
  There's no comparison here. Musk acquired his money through voluntary exchanges with buyers freely and willingly engaging in market transactions. The government uses coercive force to raise taxes, it is not voluntary. Tax money is public property and we should have a say in how it is spent. Musk's money we gave to him freely and is his to dispose of as he sees fit.
  - aguyfromnb 7y ago
    >Tax money is public property and we should have a say in how it is spent. Musk's money we gave to him freely and is his to dispose of as he sees fit. A substantial portion of Elon Musk's company's funding comes from "tax money" (Goverment contracts, EV credits, tax breaks, subsidies). This seems to contradict both of your sentences. And if you don't believe it's substantial: Tesla's EV credit sales alone were on the order of $500 million this quarter. Why is that not tax money that goes to better projects, instead of the bottom line of a company that has set its CEO up for a $350mm payday? Did the public have a say in that?
    - keanzu 7y ago
      > Did the public have a say in that? Have a say in it? Ha. The public CREATED it and drove it. Government are followers of public opinion, not leaders. There are politicians now who are building their identities and campaigns around green policies like EV credits. This is in response to the expressed desires of the public, it is what wins votes. However there's no contradiction. What the government spends money on in free market voluntary transactions is absolutely 100% within the purview of the public - right up until the instant the money is spent. After that the money is the property of the market participant who earned it. The public cannot spend the money (through government) and then also try to claw back control of the same money. It was spent, on your behalf certainly, but spent nonetheless.
    - r00fus 7y ago
      > A substantial portion of Elon Musk's company's funding comes from "tax money" (Goverment contracts, EV credits, tax breaks, subsidies). How much? Sounds more like a talking point than an actual honest critique. I mean, oil companies get massive subsidies and we spend trillions to go to war to keep the petroleum industry ascendant.
      - keanzu 7y ago
        Oil is the lifeblood of the US economy. In times of economic recession, we often blame the government and get rid of them. We've clearly signaled with our voting patterns what we want and government has delivered on it - a reliable supply of oil to power the economy. But that's not enough we also demand "Big Oil" act as our sin-eater; thus our souls are pure because Shell takes on the stain of our sins. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin-eater https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin-eater
- AndrewKemendo 7y ago
  NASA and the DoD (Through Iridium, GPS and other contractors/programs) are SpaceX's largest customers. So that "insulting amount of money on military and defense" is where SpaceX gets it's money. AFAIK we're (DoD) the only organization actually paying for starlink right now.
r00fus 7y ago
It gets more clear when you steel-man the "make humanity better" on earth and find out that the powers-that-be will fight you if you try to objectively make life better for the billions here because you will need to disrupt various power structures to do so. Mars is an aspirational, asymptotic ideal that could get more people in space/lunar and possibly also prove to be wildly profitable in some applications - while also being somewhat orthogonal to existing terrestrial hegemonies.
- keanzu 7y ago
  > if you try to objectively make life better for the billions According to Hans Rosling the world has already changed dramatically for the better, you just didn't notice. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVimVzgtD6w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVimVzgtD6w

Devagamster 7y ago

I'm not sure Mars is the most effective way to make humanity better with your billions

toomuchtodo 7y ago
The tools you'd need on Mars are: Electric mobility and energy storage, launch vehicles to cheaply lift satellite constellations to Earth orbit (which just so happen to heavy lift what you need for a Mars transit), cheap tunnel boring to reduce transportation congestion on Earth, but also to build underground (radiation protected) habitats on Mars. If you have a hobby you love (go to Mars, die on Mars), it doesn't hurt to get rich building the infra your hobby needs. You will need those funds to buy services from your companies for your hobby.

valgor 7y ago

My reply to thoughts like these are always the same: In the US we spend an insulting amount of money on military and defense. The amount of money Spacex is spending is nothing in comparison. If one is truly interested in helping humanity, then one should be advocating moving funds from the military to any branch of science or social welfare. To nitpick the small difference someone like Musk could make by doing something else is to not have your priorities set.

keanzu 7y ago
There's no comparison here. Musk acquired his money through voluntary exchanges with buyers freely and willingly engaging in market transactions. The government uses coercive force to raise taxes, it is not voluntary. Tax money is public property and we should have a say in how it is spent. Musk's money we gave to him freely and is his to dispose of as he sees fit.
- aguyfromnb 7y ago
  >Tax money is public property and we should have a say in how it is spent. Musk's money we gave to him freely and is his to dispose of as he sees fit. A substantial portion of Elon Musk's company's funding comes from "tax money" (Goverment contracts, EV credits, tax breaks, subsidies). This seems to contradict both of your sentences. And if you don't believe it's substantial: Tesla's EV credit sales alone were on the order of $500 million this quarter. Why is that not tax money that goes to better projects, instead of the bottom line of a company that has set its CEO up for a $350mm payday? Did the public have a say in that?
  - keanzu 7y ago
    > Did the public have a say in that? Have a say in it? Ha. The public CREATED it and drove it. Government are followers of public opinion, not leaders. There are politicians now who are building their identities and campaigns around green policies like EV credits. This is in response to the expressed desires of the public, it is what wins votes. However there's no contradiction. What the government spends money on in free market voluntary transactions is absolutely 100% within the purview of the public - right up until the instant the money is spent. After that the money is the property of the market participant who earned it. The public cannot spend the money (through government) and then also try to claw back control of the same money. It was spent, on your behalf certainly, but spent nonetheless.
  - r00fus 7y ago
    > A substantial portion of Elon Musk's company's funding comes from "tax money" (Goverment contracts, EV credits, tax breaks, subsidies). How much? Sounds more like a talking point than an actual honest critique. I mean, oil companies get massive subsidies and we spend trillions to go to war to keep the petroleum industry ascendant.
    - keanzu 7y ago
      Oil is the lifeblood of the US economy. In times of economic recession, we often blame the government and get rid of them. We've clearly signaled with our voting patterns what we want and government has delivered on it - a reliable supply of oil to power the economy. But that's not enough we also demand "Big Oil" act as our sin-eater; thus our souls are pure because Shell takes on the stain of our sins. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin-eater https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin-eater
AndrewKemendo 7y ago
NASA and the DoD (Through Iridium, GPS and other contractors/programs) are SpaceX's largest customers. So that "insulting amount of money on military and defense" is where SpaceX gets it's money. AFAIK we're (DoD) the only organization actually paying for starlink right now.

r00fus 7y ago

It gets more clear when you steel-man the "make humanity better" on earth and find out that the powers-that-be will fight you if you try to objectively make life better for the billions here because you will need to disrupt various power structures to do so. Mars is an aspirational, asymptotic ideal that could get more people in space/lunar and possibly also prove to be wildly profitable in some applications - while also being somewhat orthogonal to existing terrestrial hegemonies.

keanzu 7y ago
> if you try to objectively make life better for the billions According to Hans Rosling the world has already changed dramatically for the better, you just didn't notice. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVimVzgtD6w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVimVzgtD6w