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I got the highest job-hopping % increase in salary by following the advice of this book. Using tactics such as "Saying no without saying no" and "Start with you

by dot1x 7y ago

I got the highest job-hopping % increase in salary by following the advice of this book. Using tactics such as "Saying no without saying no" and "Start with your number $X+80%, then say no without saying no each time going down by 15-20% in 3 steps. At the last step, give a non-round number that seems to be your lowest threshold". The book has further gems like - Deadlines cut both ways. Never hide your deadline, as it will increase the chance of an impasse: the opponent will hold out for more while you will be pressured by the unspoken deadline. - Never bluff. Be prepared to actually walk away from the table at any given time. - If the other party thinks lowly of you, bring forth their worst fears. This allows them to see them through the glasses of logic instead of emotions. Once you diffuse their feelings in the open, they'll be more receptive to what you have to say. The book is worth a read.

eru 7y ago
Depends on what you mean by bluff. Eg you can pretend that you have another offer. But if someone calls your bluff, you shouldn't come back begging. If you need to, don't bluff.
- dot1x 7y ago
  Exactly. If someone calls your bluff, you should be able to back it up.
  - eru 7y ago
    My point was a bit subtler: you can pretend that you have an outside offer of a million dollars from company B when you are talking to company A. But when company A then refuses to pay up to you bluff, I say, "Well, tough luck, your bluff got called." There's nothing backing up the bluff, apart from your willingness to walk away.
hammock 7y ago
Great summary, I have watched several Chris Voss talks/videos but some of what you shared is new. Can you give some examples of "saying no without saying no"?
- naveen99 7y ago
  Instead of no, say “how am I supposed to do that?”
  - dot1x 7y ago
    To add to this, the author mentions multiple times that tone of voice is extremely important when using this technique. A demanding tone of voice will only backfire. Ask that question in a relaxed, non-demanding, joyful voice.
marvin 7y ago
"Start with your number $X+80%, then" Norwegian here: I've previously read self-improvement books written by Americans that state advice that gives me the same vibes as this one, specifically a feeling of this being a very bad idea. I'm almost certain that starting a salary negotiation with a demand 80% higher than my actual goal would either get me laughed out of the room, or a polite "you're too expensive for us, goodbye". I get the impression there's a major cultural aspect to this, with negotiation tactics that are considered acceptable or not in each culture. Does anyone have any experiences confirming or denying this? I don't think I'll stake my reputation in this small-ish city on trying this out.
- steveeq1 7y ago
  It's supposed to be outrageous. This is called "anchoring" so when the counterparty brings you down to your desired salary he thinks "he won". That way, they aren't mad and return to the guy for another negotiation where, presumably, he does it to you again. Not sure if this is a cultural thing, but from my experience most salespeople and lawyers in america employ this tactic (and many others like htem!), so I recommend everyone on HN read these books to know when you're being taken advantage of. Merely identifying the tactic often neurtralizes it in any real world way.
- dot1x 7y ago
  The author addresses this point. Giving a single number may indeed be "harsh" in some occasions. His suggestion is to instead use a range, which makes you seem more reasonable and won't put the other person on the defensive. I actually did use a range, forgot to mention that in my original comment. For example, you can phrase it as "At top places like $ExampleOne, $ExampleTwo, people in my position earn between $X+80%, X+100%". You then go from there. You can also lower the start of the range or increase the end of the range, make that gap wider. Every employer will go to the initial range given and try to bring you down on it because of "excuses". you are allowed to go down up to 3 times by 10-15%, with the "say no without saying no" technique. At the end, you give the non-round number (e.g 134,567$ per year) which gives the impression you put some thought into it. Another thing he mentioned is that money is not everything. Ask for more days or perks. If they can't meet you on those they might instead bump your salary. It's also about putting in a bit of theatrics. For example, when I gave my final number for my salary I paused and said "give me a moment" and scribbled something on a piece of paper. After that I said my non-round number. It worked. No technique is fool-proof. All it takes though is for it to work most of the time.

by dot1x 7y ago

eru 7y ago

Depends on what you mean by bluff. Eg you can pretend that you have another offer. But if someone calls your bluff, you shouldn't come back begging. If you need to, don't bluff.

dot1x 7y ago
Exactly. If someone calls your bluff, you should be able to back it up.
- eru 7y ago
  My point was a bit subtler: you can pretend that you have an outside offer of a million dollars from company B when you are talking to company A. But when company A then refuses to pay up to you bluff, I say, "Well, tough luck, your bluff got called." There's nothing backing up the bluff, apart from your willingness to walk away.

hammock 7y ago

Great summary, I have watched several Chris Voss talks/videos but some of what you shared is new. Can you give some examples of "saying no without saying no"?

naveen99 7y ago
Instead of no, say “how am I supposed to do that?”
- dot1x 7y ago
  To add to this, the author mentions multiple times that tone of voice is extremely important when using this technique. A demanding tone of voice will only backfire. Ask that question in a relaxed, non-demanding, joyful voice.

marvin 7y ago

"Start with your number $X+80%, then" Norwegian here: I've previously read self-improvement books written by Americans that state advice that gives me the same vibes as this one, specifically a feeling of this being a very bad idea. I'm almost certain that starting a salary negotiation with a demand 80% higher than my actual goal would either get me laughed out of the room, or a polite "you're too expensive for us, goodbye". I get the impression there's a major cultural aspect to this, with negotiation tactics that are considered acceptable or not in each culture. Does anyone have any experiences confirming or denying this? I don't think I'll stake my reputation in this small-ish city on trying this out.

steveeq1 7y ago
It's supposed to be outrageous. This is called "anchoring" so when the counterparty brings you down to your desired salary he thinks "he won". That way, they aren't mad and return to the guy for another negotiation where, presumably, he does it to you again. Not sure if this is a cultural thing, but from my experience most salespeople and lawyers in america employ this tactic (and many others like htem!), so I recommend everyone on HN read these books to know when you're being taken advantage of. Merely identifying the tactic often neurtralizes it in any real world way.
dot1x 7y ago
The author addresses this point. Giving a single number may indeed be "harsh" in some occasions. His suggestion is to instead use a range, which makes you seem more reasonable and won't put the other person on the defensive. I actually did use a range, forgot to mention that in my original comment. For example, you can phrase it as "At top places like $ExampleOne, $ExampleTwo, people in my position earn between $X+80%, X+100%". You then go from there. You can also lower the start of the range or increase the end of the range, make that gap wider. Every employer will go to the initial range given and try to bring you down on it because of "excuses". you are allowed to go down up to 3 times by 10-15%, with the "say no without saying no" technique. At the end, you give the non-round number (e.g 134,567$ per year) which gives the impression you put some thought into it. Another thing he mentioned is that money is not everything. Ask for more days or perks. If they can't meet you on those they might instead bump your salary. It's also about putting in a bit of theatrics. For example, when I gave my final number for my salary I paused and said "give me a moment" and scribbled something on a piece of paper. After that I said my non-round number. It worked. No technique is fool-proof. All it takes though is for it to work most of the time.