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Silicon Valley has consistently failed to disrupt legal markets, not just because lawyers are a protectionist guild, but also because clients seem to want to ov

Silicon Valley has consistently failed to disrupt legal markets, not just because lawyers are a protectionist guild, but also because clients seem to want to overpay. It’s a pathology that has something to do with the idea that the higher cost is worthwhile. As a lawyer who has been both a BigLaw attorney and in-house counsel, I find the premise that name brand law firms are worth their fees to be totally wrong. The incentives for any lawyer who is on the clock are contrary to your own best interests, and even more so when they have to pay for a pyramid scheme of senior partners, expensive offices, first-class airfares, etc. Try going through a funding round with well-known VCs. I bet they all still use Gunderson and Wilson Sonsini instead of the “disruptors“ in their own portfolios.

6sp 7y ago
I’ve used WSGR countless times at startups and while they are great to deal with the fees are very cost prohibitive for a bootstrapped company. I think in the case of UpCounsel there’s significant pushback against this business model from big law firms as well as competition. They lost a lawsuit with another somewhat competing company called LegalForce I wonder if that influenced them shutting down.
gumby 7y ago
I think the customers don't know how to use legal counsel and somehow don't want to learn. I agree it's bizarre. I have used Gunderson Dettmer since they started (was before that one of VLG's first accounts) and have very low legal bills. But I know when to use them and when not to. And when a partner is needed (almost never) and when I can get as good or better from an associate. Another weird thing is that many customers value the firm and not the partner (I don't really use the firm GD, I use specific people). I "used" Cooley for one specific firm but really I used one person and when he decamped for another firm my company moved with him. Likewise just because that company used Cooley for general corporate law didn't mean we even considered their patent team.
- jfengel 7y ago
  I really hope I never have to learn how to use legal counsel. Businesses, of course, have to, but even there it's hard. How does one "shop around" for a lawyer? On what basis can I judge whether somebody is sufficiently smart, hard working, and experienced in the domains I will require? If I had to do it every day, I'd learn through a series of mistakes. In fact, that's basically what I have done, on the few occasions I've needed a lawyer -- I'm pretty sure I've gotten poor-quality work, but even now I don't really know. I know that I'm not happy with the results in every case, but I have no idea if a different lawyer would have done better. That has mostly left me really hoping I never need an attorney for my personal life. Which I will, some day -- and suspect my heirs will complain about my choice.
  - gumby 7y ago
    You should meet a friendly lawyer (perhaps an ex classmate who went to law school) and have them "show you the ropes". There's a ton of unnecessary crap that customers (err, "clients") ask for or could and should do themselves. And there are places lawyers can help a lot (hint: typically not business decisions).
    - elpakal 7y ago
      hijacking this to show off something my lawyer friend and I are working on (we’re in YC startup school now). we both agree with some of the comments in this thread. this is a lite landing page but we have mvp almost complete: https://thecaseyak.com/ https://thecaseyak.com/ It’s a ML backed plugin that helps injured people receive a data backed case estimate for a personal injury claim, and law firms receive leads with the data backed case value (it’s also available in Spanish and fully accessible). We’re looking for beta testers right now - if anyone is in the PI law world and wants to try it out, let us know!
manigandham 7y ago
Part of it is that legal work has high risk if done wrong so people tend to prefer large firms and high prices since it offers peace of mind, even if there's no real difference.
- nihonde 7y ago
  I don’t buy into the idea that big law firms are more accountable than anyone else. I’ve spent too much time behind the scenes to fall for that anymore. Can you imagine trying to sue a global law firm for malpractice? Are you aware that everything gets pushed down to the lowest, least experienced associate because that’s built into the business model? Some firms are better than others, but I just simply don’t trust any of them any more. Edit: I also don’t have too much respect for senior partners at big law firms any more. What kind of person cedes that much of their personal equity? If they were really great, they’d take their clients and run away from the huge, dysfunctional cost structure of BigLaw.
  - c0restraint 7y ago
    > I don’t buy into the idea that big law firms are more accountable than anyone else. That’s not what the previous person said. People just think they’re paying a premium to get it done right, when as you point out, price is uncorrelated to correctness
    - nihonde 7y ago
      Yes, I suppose I was responding to the person GP was describing. I should have been more clear.
  - manigandham 7y ago
    Yes, my point is that people prefer the bigger names because it comes with a better perception of quality and general guarantee that they'll be around in case something goes wrong.
    - nihonde 7y ago

6sp 7y ago

I’ve used WSGR countless times at startups and while they are great to deal with the fees are very cost prohibitive for a bootstrapped company. I think in the case of UpCounsel there’s significant pushback against this business model from big law firms as well as competition. They lost a lawsuit with another somewhat competing company called LegalForce I wonder if that influenced them shutting down.

gumby 7y ago

I think the customers don't know how to use legal counsel and somehow don't want to learn. I agree it's bizarre. I have used Gunderson Dettmer since they started (was before that one of VLG's first accounts) and have very low legal bills. But I know when to use them and when not to. And when a partner is needed (almost never) and when I can get as good or better from an associate. Another weird thing is that many customers value the firm and not the partner (I don't really use the firm GD, I use specific people). I "used" Cooley for one specific firm but really I used one person and when he decamped for another firm my company moved with him. Likewise just because that company used Cooley for general corporate law didn't mean we even considered their patent team.

jfengel 7y ago
I really hope I never have to learn how to use legal counsel. Businesses, of course, have to, but even there it's hard. How does one "shop around" for a lawyer? On what basis can I judge whether somebody is sufficiently smart, hard working, and experienced in the domains I will require? If I had to do it every day, I'd learn through a series of mistakes. In fact, that's basically what I have done, on the few occasions I've needed a lawyer -- I'm pretty sure I've gotten poor-quality work, but even now I don't really know. I know that I'm not happy with the results in every case, but I have no idea if a different lawyer would have done better. That has mostly left me really hoping I never need an attorney for my personal life. Which I will, some day -- and suspect my heirs will complain about my choice.
- gumby 7y ago
  You should meet a friendly lawyer (perhaps an ex classmate who went to law school) and have them "show you the ropes". There's a ton of unnecessary crap that customers (err, "clients") ask for or could and should do themselves. And there are places lawyers can help a lot (hint: typically not business decisions).
  - elpakal 7y ago
    hijacking this to show off something my lawyer friend and I are working on (we’re in YC startup school now). we both agree with some of the comments in this thread. this is a lite landing page but we have mvp almost complete: https://thecaseyak.com/ https://thecaseyak.com/ It’s a ML backed plugin that helps injured people receive a data backed case estimate for a personal injury claim, and law firms receive leads with the data backed case value (it’s also available in Spanish and fully accessible). We’re looking for beta testers right now - if anyone is in the PI law world and wants to try it out, let us know!

manigandham 7y ago

Part of it is that legal work has high risk if done wrong so people tend to prefer large firms and high prices since it offers peace of mind, even if there's no real difference.

nihonde 7y ago
I don’t buy into the idea that big law firms are more accountable than anyone else. I’ve spent too much time behind the scenes to fall for that anymore. Can you imagine trying to sue a global law firm for malpractice? Are you aware that everything gets pushed down to the lowest, least experienced associate because that’s built into the business model? Some firms are better than others, but I just simply don’t trust any of them any more. Edit: I also don’t have too much respect for senior partners at big law firms any more. What kind of person cedes that much of their personal equity? If they were really great, they’d take their clients and run away from the huge, dysfunctional cost structure of BigLaw.
- c0restraint 7y ago
  > I don’t buy into the idea that big law firms are more accountable than anyone else. That’s not what the previous person said. People just think they’re paying a premium to get it done right, when as you point out, price is uncorrelated to correctness
  - nihonde 7y ago
    Yes, I suppose I was responding to the person GP was describing. I should have been more clear.
- manigandham 7y ago
  Yes, my point is that people prefer the bigger names because it comes with a better perception of quality and general guarantee that they'll be around in case something goes wrong.
  - nihonde 7y ago