7 ms·

Unless they use your easy going cooperativeness to run you in circles, endlessly delaying something they don't want to happen. Or constantly delivering only a t

Unless they use your easy going cooperativeness to run you in circles, endlessly delaying something they don't want to happen. Or constantly delivering only a token amount of their side of any compromise deal to cause re-compromises etc. Sometimes soft negotiations have to turn to hard negotiations. In fact, I would argue that the potential to turn into a hard negotiation - but not yet being such - is a key factor in making soft negotiations work.

Madmallard 7y ago
In my experience if it's not a point they are actually flexible on they will 100% do this no matter how charismatic you try to be.
jacobush 7y ago
Speak softly and carry a big stick.
- theelous3 7y ago
  Sure, but in employment post salary negotiation your only (or at least biggest) big stick is leaving. For many people that's a... double edged stick, to stretch the analogy. There's not many sticks to emolpy unless you're unionised or otherwise have strong networking in the company.
  - ReptileMan 7y ago
    Timing is critical. If you are crucial to a project and threaten to leave while deadline looms and cost the company couple of million - then they will be flexible.
    - ChuckNorris89 7y ago
      Be careful with that though as it will only work once and you might not last long there after that. While the company might give you what you ask for this one time, they will feel blackmalied and will see you as a flight risk, ready to leave for greener pastures at any moment anyway, so they'll prepare themselves by restricting your access to promotions, trainings and critical work so you don't pull that stunt again and slowly reduce its dependency on you and you could soon find yourself training your future replacements. It's all 101 in the HR handbook. Try it, but only as long as you always have an exit planned.
      - plapetomain 7y ago
        > While the company might give you what you ask for this one time, they will feel blackmalied and will see you as a flight risk, ready to leave for greener pastures at any moment anyway, so they'll prepare themselves by restricting your access to promotions, trainings and critical work so you don't pull that stunt again and slowly reduce its dependency on you This is a pretty reliable trope. I feel like I hear this every time someone mentions putting the screws to their employer. Yet I have yet to see it borne out by evidence. It sounds scary. In practice I have never experienced it. The reality is that institutional memory at most institutions is so fleeting that this above threat has never become an issue in practice. Mind you in all cases I’ve always been prepared to walk, so that’s something to keep in mind, but I’ve never experienced worse treatment for leveraging what scraps I have. It’s pretty much been the opposite. Once I have that promotion by whatever means, magically I’m treated better. It has never failed.
  - eru 7y ago
    Well, the company doesn't really have that many sticks either, once you are in. They can fire you, and they can delay advancement. (Btw, you have an implicit stick about not working with as much motivation.)
    - gowld 7y ago
      This is something employers are terrible at understanding. Employees in professional roles have tremendous ability to waste employer resources or underdeliver value. Nickel-and-diming employees is self-destructive, unless the employer is excellent at hiring desperate weak-willed employees... like naive college students and people pinned under H1B.
      - eru 7y ago
        Compare https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-05-21/banks-as-socialist-collectives https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-05-21/banks-...
      - A4ET8a8uTh0 7y ago
        I am not sure that is true. My most recent conversation with my boss' boss made it clear that he was concerned them not meeting my needs money-wise would result lower motivation. He made a whole speech about bringing his best every day and we were not there to discuss motivation. Management is well aware of what might happen. Financial incentives, however, are aligned with keeping costs as low as possible. And you are seen as cost. Even when you bring money in. That means unless you have an offer on the table, ability to waste time is a secondary consideration. For the record, I agree about the ability to waste time. I don't agree with assessment that management does not get it. They just act in their own short term interest.
    - theelous3 7y ago
      > not working with as much motivation That's the equivalent of hitting myself and my employer, just hitting them a little harder. If I'm lazing around, I'm bored and not progressing as a developer. I don't know if you've ever had a job where you do nothing or very little, but it's torture. Plus, you run the risk of getting sticked right back for underperforming.
  - TheBobinator 7y ago
    I've seen sales guys intentionally leak information to the competititon in order to try to push a company they were working for out of business so they could get out of their non-compete contract and go after more lucrative employment at a competitor. I've also seen them sabotage a company just out of spite. Your biggest stick is actually flipping the table and doing something that seriously damages the company or puts it out of business. Comitting actual crimes like embezzlement, theft, or damaging company equipment for which you are not caught are also great sticks. Of course, nobody likes to talk about that, they find it too high minded, but all to often that is what goes on behind closed doors. The root cause of it is a mal-formed, unfair compensation policy. Classic example is Small business Sole Proprietorships where the ownership passes their purchases through the company and plays accounting games to hide profitability from their staff. The staff are always told "work harder to make the profits go up we'll reward you", nobody gets to see the balance sheet so the profit number they are given is fundementally hidden and there's no end of excuses as to why the business can't pay those market wages or big bonuses. Then one day the ownership sells, new ownership cleans house, and we repeat. They'll negotiate just fine, make verbal promises, but at the end of the day there's a scam going on. And when people feel scammed, then they do the aboved illegal\immoral crap and make the place a totally messed up place to work.
    - gowld 7y ago
      > immoral Nope.
chasd00 7y ago
very true, being nice gets you very far but it can also lead to you turning into a doormat. The trick is seeing it coming and changing the discussion appropriately. I had a boss that was an expert at this, he was all smiles and sunshine with vendors until they started to take advantage. At that point, they found they were negotiating with a calculator on the sum of 2+2.

Madmallard 7y ago

In my experience if it's not a point they are actually flexible on they will 100% do this no matter how charismatic you try to be.

jacobush 7y ago

Speak softly and carry a big stick.

theelous3 7y ago
Sure, but in employment post salary negotiation your only (or at least biggest) big stick is leaving. For many people that's a... double edged stick, to stretch the analogy. There's not many sticks to emolpy unless you're unionised or otherwise have strong networking in the company.
- ReptileMan 7y ago
  Timing is critical. If you are crucial to a project and threaten to leave while deadline looms and cost the company couple of million - then they will be flexible.
  - ChuckNorris89 7y ago
    Be careful with that though as it will only work once and you might not last long there after that. While the company might give you what you ask for this one time, they will feel blackmalied and will see you as a flight risk, ready to leave for greener pastures at any moment anyway, so they'll prepare themselves by restricting your access to promotions, trainings and critical work so you don't pull that stunt again and slowly reduce its dependency on you and you could soon find yourself training your future replacements. It's all 101 in the HR handbook. Try it, but only as long as you always have an exit planned.
    - plapetomain 7y ago
      > While the company might give you what you ask for this one time, they will feel blackmalied and will see you as a flight risk, ready to leave for greener pastures at any moment anyway, so they'll prepare themselves by restricting your access to promotions, trainings and critical work so you don't pull that stunt again and slowly reduce its dependency on you This is a pretty reliable trope. I feel like I hear this every time someone mentions putting the screws to their employer. Yet I have yet to see it borne out by evidence. It sounds scary. In practice I have never experienced it. The reality is that institutional memory at most institutions is so fleeting that this above threat has never become an issue in practice. Mind you in all cases I’ve always been prepared to walk, so that’s something to keep in mind, but I’ve never experienced worse treatment for leveraging what scraps I have. It’s pretty much been the opposite. Once I have that promotion by whatever means, magically I’m treated better. It has never failed.
- eru 7y ago
  Well, the company doesn't really have that many sticks either, once you are in. They can fire you, and they can delay advancement. (Btw, you have an implicit stick about not working with as much motivation.)
  - gowld 7y ago
    This is something employers are terrible at understanding. Employees in professional roles have tremendous ability to waste employer resources or underdeliver value. Nickel-and-diming employees is self-destructive, unless the employer is excellent at hiring desperate weak-willed employees... like naive college students and people pinned under H1B.
    - eru 7y ago
      Compare https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-05-21/banks-as-socialist-collectives https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-05-21/banks-...
    - A4ET8a8uTh0 7y ago
      I am not sure that is true. My most recent conversation with my boss' boss made it clear that he was concerned them not meeting my needs money-wise would result lower motivation. He made a whole speech about bringing his best every day and we were not there to discuss motivation. Management is well aware of what might happen. Financial incentives, however, are aligned with keeping costs as low as possible. And you are seen as cost. Even when you bring money in. That means unless you have an offer on the table, ability to waste time is a secondary consideration. For the record, I agree about the ability to waste time. I don't agree with assessment that management does not get it. They just act in their own short term interest.
  - theelous3 7y ago
    > not working with as much motivation That's the equivalent of hitting myself and my employer, just hitting them a little harder. If I'm lazing around, I'm bored and not progressing as a developer. I don't know if you've ever had a job where you do nothing or very little, but it's torture. Plus, you run the risk of getting sticked right back for underperforming.
- TheBobinator 7y ago
  I've seen sales guys intentionally leak information to the competititon in order to try to push a company they were working for out of business so they could get out of their non-compete contract and go after more lucrative employment at a competitor. I've also seen them sabotage a company just out of spite. Your biggest stick is actually flipping the table and doing something that seriously damages the company or puts it out of business. Comitting actual crimes like embezzlement, theft, or damaging company equipment for which you are not caught are also great sticks. Of course, nobody likes to talk about that, they find it too high minded, but all to often that is what goes on behind closed doors. The root cause of it is a mal-formed, unfair compensation policy. Classic example is Small business Sole Proprietorships where the ownership passes their purchases through the company and plays accounting games to hide profitability from their staff. The staff are always told "work harder to make the profits go up we'll reward you", nobody gets to see the balance sheet so the profit number they are given is fundementally hidden and there's no end of excuses as to why the business can't pay those market wages or big bonuses. Then one day the ownership sells, new ownership cleans house, and we repeat. They'll negotiate just fine, make verbal promises, but at the end of the day there's a scam going on. And when people feel scammed, then they do the aboved illegal\immoral crap and make the place a totally messed up place to work.
  - gowld 7y ago
    > immoral Nope.

chasd00 7y ago

very true, being nice gets you very far but it can also lead to you turning into a doormat. The trick is seeing it coming and changing the discussion appropriately. I had a boss that was an expert at this, he was all smiles and sunshine with vendors until they started to take advantage. At that point, they found they were negotiating with a calculator on the sum of 2+2.