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Have you ever visited a city like Mumbai? In the larger cities of most less developed countries it's not only very accepted but even necessary for the safety of

by Siemer 7y ago

Have you ever visited a city like Mumbai? In the larger cities of most less developed countries it's not only very accepted but even necessary for the safety of everyone to honk at every corner or crowded situation. The main culprit is the staggering amount of scooters, that usually ignore all rules and zip through any opening they can find. You'll be saving lives by honking in every situation, people kind of count on it. I'm not surprised this behavior translates into an increase in meaningless honking at red traffic signs.

aww_dang 7y ago
Yes. Do you believe that these behaviors are necessary and excusable because of the lack of development or that these countries are less developed because of these attitudes? Which option is a proactive philosophy which promotes change?
- Siemer 7y ago
  In the current situation it is necessary, since it prevents accidents. The main problem is that there is simply too much traffic on poorly planned and barely maintained infrastructure, so in that sense development would "solve" the necessity of honking. But that's a long term solution, which will require a lot of time and funding. A short term solution that does not involve a massive infrastructure overhaul is difficult. Perhaps a clever reflow AI could mitigate some of the problems in the near future. This is something that does need attention, because the air pollution in cities facing this problem is terrible.
  - aww_dang 7y ago
    Somehow other regions manage to handle traffic congestion without creating 85db of noise pollution.
Ayesh 7y ago
Not the person you replied to but I disagree with this. I've been to Mumbai (and Delhi and a few other cities for that matter), and it is not for the safety. Take Ho Chi Minh City for example. There are more scooters there than people, and honking is not much of a problem as in Mumbai. Scooter riders know how to make their way and they are super precise when pedestrians cross. Pedestrians don't wait for scooters to stop. You just cross the road, and scooters will go around you. In India, there is the reverse mentality that roads belong to vehicles and pedestrians just have to take care of themselves.
- vadasambar 7y ago
  > Scooter riders know how to make their way and they are super precise when pedestrians cross. Pedestrians don't wait for scooters to stop. This actually describes India as much as Ho Chi Minh City.
- kranner 7y ago
  > I've been to Mumbai (and Delhi and a few other cities for that matter), and it is not for the safety. I live in India, and a lot of times it is for safety. It's not always about people crossing the road. There are people walking on the road, shoulder-to-shoulder, four deep; there are scooters driving side by side as their drivers are having a conversation; there are car and scooter drivers talking on their cellphones edging along slowly, not stopping, not driving at the normal speed of traffic; there are people getting out of parking, backing into traffic, seemingly oblivious to you as they drive backwards into you while you're stopped or braking hard; there are cattle; there are dogs. 9 times out of 10 it is for safety. The Mumbai traffic light honking is about people honking at vehicles stopped in front of them to start driving when there's still a few seconds left on the red light. That's what the cops are trying to prevent.
  - Taniwha 7y ago
    I have observed this .... it doesn't help that they count down the red to green change
    - gowld 7y ago
      This is famously bad design that had been abandoned by everyone who can afford to update.
  - aww_dang 7y ago
    It should be fair to start with the premise that this behavior creates a noise pollution problem. Otherwise the authorities would not be working to curb it. Everyone has an excuse, but two wrongs don't make a right. Drivers are not justified to create noise pollution because pedestrians or other drivers are indulging in inconsiderate behavior. I've lived on both sides of the world and frankly, it all comes down to how the individual regards himself and his social obligations. S. Asia is notorious for it's poor regard of public spaces. These are foundational cultural concepts that I don't see changing any time soon. Without a sense of personal responsibility the individual is powerless to act. The excuses you provide make the problem perpetually someone else's fault. The comment above spoke to the "entitlement of drivers" and this is the key to the whole issue. In the west, I've seen known gangsters stop their limo to personally remove a single piece of litter from the street. These are people who explicitly live outside of the bounds of the law. This person could have made his chauffeur or assistant retrieve the trash, yet he took such pride in his neighborhood that he had to do it personally. The contrast is obvious. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3968587/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3968587/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_effects_from_noise https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_effects_from_noise
toomanybeersies 7y ago
I've spent my fair share of time on the road in developing countries. Because of how everyone drives, honking is a necessity. It's how you know where other drivers/riders are without needing to see them, and when there's traffic all around, you can't only use your eyes. I actually feel safer riding a motorbike in developing countries than I do in Australia, because at least drivers are aware and expecting me in somewhere like Vietnam.

by Siemer 7y ago

aww_dang 7y ago

Yes. Do you believe that these behaviors are necessary and excusable because of the lack of development or that these countries are less developed because of these attitudes? Which option is a proactive philosophy which promotes change?

Siemer 7y ago
In the current situation it is necessary, since it prevents accidents. The main problem is that there is simply too much traffic on poorly planned and barely maintained infrastructure, so in that sense development would "solve" the necessity of honking. But that's a long term solution, which will require a lot of time and funding. A short term solution that does not involve a massive infrastructure overhaul is difficult. Perhaps a clever reflow AI could mitigate some of the problems in the near future. This is something that does need attention, because the air pollution in cities facing this problem is terrible.
- aww_dang 7y ago
  Somehow other regions manage to handle traffic congestion without creating 85db of noise pollution.

Ayesh 7y ago

Not the person you replied to but I disagree with this. I've been to Mumbai (and Delhi and a few other cities for that matter), and it is not for the safety. Take Ho Chi Minh City for example. There are more scooters there than people, and honking is not much of a problem as in Mumbai. Scooter riders know how to make their way and they are super precise when pedestrians cross. Pedestrians don't wait for scooters to stop. You just cross the road, and scooters will go around you. In India, there is the reverse mentality that roads belong to vehicles and pedestrians just have to take care of themselves.

vadasambar 7y ago
> Scooter riders know how to make their way and they are super precise when pedestrians cross. Pedestrians don't wait for scooters to stop. This actually describes India as much as Ho Chi Minh City.
kranner 7y ago
> I've been to Mumbai (and Delhi and a few other cities for that matter), and it is not for the safety. I live in India, and a lot of times it is for safety. It's not always about people crossing the road. There are people walking on the road, shoulder-to-shoulder, four deep; there are scooters driving side by side as their drivers are having a conversation; there are car and scooter drivers talking on their cellphones edging along slowly, not stopping, not driving at the normal speed of traffic; there are people getting out of parking, backing into traffic, seemingly oblivious to you as they drive backwards into you while you're stopped or braking hard; there are cattle; there are dogs. 9 times out of 10 it is for safety. The Mumbai traffic light honking is about people honking at vehicles stopped in front of them to start driving when there's still a few seconds left on the red light. That's what the cops are trying to prevent.
- Taniwha 7y ago
  I have observed this .... it doesn't help that they count down the red to green change
  - gowld 7y ago
    This is famously bad design that had been abandoned by everyone who can afford to update.
- aww_dang 7y ago
  It should be fair to start with the premise that this behavior creates a noise pollution problem. Otherwise the authorities would not be working to curb it. Everyone has an excuse, but two wrongs don't make a right. Drivers are not justified to create noise pollution because pedestrians or other drivers are indulging in inconsiderate behavior. I've lived on both sides of the world and frankly, it all comes down to how the individual regards himself and his social obligations. S. Asia is notorious for it's poor regard of public spaces. These are foundational cultural concepts that I don't see changing any time soon. Without a sense of personal responsibility the individual is powerless to act. The excuses you provide make the problem perpetually someone else's fault. The comment above spoke to the "entitlement of drivers" and this is the key to the whole issue. In the west, I've seen known gangsters stop their limo to personally remove a single piece of litter from the street. These are people who explicitly live outside of the bounds of the law. This person could have made his chauffeur or assistant retrieve the trash, yet he took such pride in his neighborhood that he had to do it personally. The contrast is obvious. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3968587/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3968587/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_effects_from_noise https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_effects_from_noise

toomanybeersies 7y ago

I've spent my fair share of time on the road in developing countries. Because of how everyone drives, honking is a necessity. It's how you know where other drivers/riders are without needing to see them, and when there's traffic all around, you can't only use your eyes. I actually feel safer riding a motorbike in developing countries than I do in Australia, because at least drivers are aware and expecting me in somewhere like Vietnam.