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Even if we posit that the conscious "I" is a conditioned construct, that doesn't resolve the problem of qualia: which is the really hard one, imo. It doesn't he

Even if we posit that the conscious "I" is a conditioned construct, that doesn't resolve the problem of qualia: which is the really hard one, imo. It doesn't help, of course, that a lot of people don't seem to see a difference between the two formulations.

trevyn 7y ago
We have neural circuits that receive sense data, place attention, and record attentional memories. Where’s the problem?
- collyw 7y ago
  You could do all of what you describe in a computer system. Subjective experience is something quite different from that (or it seems to be).
  - trevyn 7y ago
    You know what it’s like to be a computer system with human & surrounding society levels of complexity? That has been conditioned to think it’s not a machine?
    - collyw 7y ago
      You seem very certain of you conclusions. What makes you so sure of them, as the area we are discussing seems very poorly understood by science at present?
- wsy 7y ago
  > We have neural circuits that receive sense data, place attention, and record attentional memories. From there, you can either go into the direction where we are just machines, and everything we do is predicted by how we are programmed. Then, free will, ethics, etc. are out of the window. There is then also just a machine named trevyn posting bit patterns on HN. In such a world, consciousness and free will don't actually exist, or only do exist as some kind of illusion/imagination. While this world view is somewhat consistent, it seems very hard to reconcile it with your own self-image. Why would you continue to strive for anything if you really believe in this 'clockwork' model? It sounds like a sad life, somewhat like taking the red pill and finding out you have no control whatsoever over your own life and can't leave your lifelong coffin. The alternative would be a real explanation, i.e., assume that consciousness and free will exist as you experience them, and explain how neural circuits generate these effects. With this assumption, you so far only stated that neural circuits cause consciousness. But that is not an explanation yet. You need to explain how it happens. And that means, you need to connect the tangible, physical world with an intangible, non-physical phenomenon such as consciousness. I'm looking forward to see how you cross that bridge.
- walleeee 7y ago
  When one undergoes "ego death", experience doesn't necessarily disappear. Mental boundaries between self and other might, but unless one is completely comatose, there still remains the sensation of being, for lack of a better word. It's not so difficult to induce "oneness with the universe", or even total withdrawal from it (as with dissociatives), but nobody has the slightest clue why any portion of the universe (or all of it, depending who you ask) should feel like anything. That's where the hard problem is, I think. Are you saying qualia don't exist, as per some interpretations of Dennett?
- gfodor 7y ago
  Why is the experience of “trevyn” the one you have insight to and not another brain’s? It’s not rocket science to realize something very unexplained is going on when it comes to qualia and it’s sampling.
mapcars 7y ago
What is qualia and why you think it is a problem for you? :D
- natch 7y ago
  Nice, I see what you did there. Or do I?

trevyn 7y ago

We have neural circuits that receive sense data, place attention, and record attentional memories. Where’s the problem?

collyw 7y ago
You could do all of what you describe in a computer system. Subjective experience is something quite different from that (or it seems to be).
- trevyn 7y ago
  You know what it’s like to be a computer system with human & surrounding society levels of complexity? That has been conditioned to think it’s not a machine?
  - collyw 7y ago
    You seem very certain of you conclusions. What makes you so sure of them, as the area we are discussing seems very poorly understood by science at present?
wsy 7y ago
> We have neural circuits that receive sense data, place attention, and record attentional memories. From there, you can either go into the direction where we are just machines, and everything we do is predicted by how we are programmed. Then, free will, ethics, etc. are out of the window. There is then also just a machine named trevyn posting bit patterns on HN. In such a world, consciousness and free will don't actually exist, or only do exist as some kind of illusion/imagination. While this world view is somewhat consistent, it seems very hard to reconcile it with your own self-image. Why would you continue to strive for anything if you really believe in this 'clockwork' model? It sounds like a sad life, somewhat like taking the red pill and finding out you have no control whatsoever over your own life and can't leave your lifelong coffin. The alternative would be a real explanation, i.e., assume that consciousness and free will exist as you experience them, and explain how neural circuits generate these effects. With this assumption, you so far only stated that neural circuits cause consciousness. But that is not an explanation yet. You need to explain how it happens. And that means, you need to connect the tangible, physical world with an intangible, non-physical phenomenon such as consciousness. I'm looking forward to see how you cross that bridge.
walleeee 7y ago
When one undergoes "ego death", experience doesn't necessarily disappear. Mental boundaries between self and other might, but unless one is completely comatose, there still remains the sensation of being, for lack of a better word. It's not so difficult to induce "oneness with the universe", or even total withdrawal from it (as with dissociatives), but nobody has the slightest clue why any portion of the universe (or all of it, depending who you ask) should feel like anything. That's where the hard problem is, I think. Are you saying qualia don't exist, as per some interpretations of Dennett?
gfodor 7y ago
Why is the experience of “trevyn” the one you have insight to and not another brain’s? It’s not rocket science to realize something very unexplained is going on when it comes to qualia and it’s sampling.

mapcars 7y ago

What is qualia and why you think it is a problem for you? :D

natch 7y ago
Nice, I see what you did there. Or do I?