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We have huge problems with policing in this country, no doubt. This is simply not comparable to the systemic oppression and persecution of political and ethnic

We have huge problems with policing in this country, no doubt. This is simply not comparable to the systemic oppression and persecution of political and ethnic undesirables in places like China. Note that millions of us Americans who are disgusted with systemic racism and authoritarian overreach in our country are free to discuss it openly, assemble in opposition, and vote our conscience. Do you imagine a person in China is likewise free to engage in a public discussion about Uyghur concentration camps?

grecy 7y ago
You're missing my point entirely. Americans have no idea they are being fed propaganda. That's my point. That's what I said right back at the start. It's not relevant what a person in China can or can't do.
- nate_meurer 7y ago
  No, that's not the only point you've been arguing. In response to the assertion that American dissidents are not jailed or killed as a matter of policy, you responded with this: > Plenty of people were jailed in the occupy wall street peaceful demonstrations. Open your eyes. My argument is that this is a bullshit, apples-to-oranges distraction. I'm sorry to be so blunt. > Americans have no idea they are being fed propaganda. What "Americans" are you talking about? You're talking to an American right now. There are millions of us fully aware that we're swimming in spin, biased reporting, and government misinformation. If anything, seeing propaganda everywhere we look has become a bit of an American pastime. Regardless, look around at this forum; I can't count how many heated debates we've had on HN about the dark, rotten corners of this country's past and present. Everything from the genocide of the Native Americans to the Lost Cause, the Iraq War, Snowden, what have you. It's bizarre that you can invoke the deaths of American protesters at the hands of the police, and then condemn Americans' collective gullibility and disinterest as though it's somehow comparable, in any fucking way whatsoever, to things like the Great Firewall. They are not comparable. You and I agree on more things than not. But on some topics like this, I really think you get carried away with sweeping and reactionary generalizations that don't help your case.
- SmirkingRevenge 7y ago
  In the US (and most open democracies, probably) - propagandists are warring with other propagandists, in a perpetual contest for influence and power. Nearly everyone is aware that there are tremendous amounts of misinformation and propaganda being thrown at them every day. And its not just Democrats vs Republicans. Its also corporations, activists, advertisers, or even other nation states, etc. People are quite good at recognizing the propaganda from other bubbles that aren't their own (hence everyone on the left seeing Fox News for what is... and everyone on the right seeing CNN/MSNBC for what they are). Many of the resources within each bubble are dedicated to exposing the propaganda of other bubbles. A bubble's inhabitants do less well at recognizing and acknowledging the propaganda of their own bubble, however. Democracies are basically (thought) bubble blowing contests. Its not quite the market place of ideas we wanted or hoped for... but its what we have today, and its still preferable to the alternative, where there's only one despot-controlled bubble - and so we don't even realize that bubbles exist at all - or if we do, we don't mention it out loud, if we know whats "good" for us.

grecy 7y ago

You're missing my point entirely. Americans have no idea they are being fed propaganda. That's my point. That's what I said right back at the start. It's not relevant what a person in China can or can't do.

nate_meurer 7y ago
No, that's not the only point you've been arguing. In response to the assertion that American dissidents are not jailed or killed as a matter of policy, you responded with this: > Plenty of people were jailed in the occupy wall street peaceful demonstrations. Open your eyes. My argument is that this is a bullshit, apples-to-oranges distraction. I'm sorry to be so blunt. > Americans have no idea they are being fed propaganda. What "Americans" are you talking about? You're talking to an American right now. There are millions of us fully aware that we're swimming in spin, biased reporting, and government misinformation. If anything, seeing propaganda everywhere we look has become a bit of an American pastime. Regardless, look around at this forum; I can't count how many heated debates we've had on HN about the dark, rotten corners of this country's past and present. Everything from the genocide of the Native Americans to the Lost Cause, the Iraq War, Snowden, what have you. It's bizarre that you can invoke the deaths of American protesters at the hands of the police, and then condemn Americans' collective gullibility and disinterest as though it's somehow comparable, in any fucking way whatsoever, to things like the Great Firewall. They are not comparable. You and I agree on more things than not. But on some topics like this, I really think you get carried away with sweeping and reactionary generalizations that don't help your case.
SmirkingRevenge 7y ago
In the US (and most open democracies, probably) - propagandists are warring with other propagandists, in a perpetual contest for influence and power. Nearly everyone is aware that there are tremendous amounts of misinformation and propaganda being thrown at them every day. And its not just Democrats vs Republicans. Its also corporations, activists, advertisers, or even other nation states, etc. People are quite good at recognizing the propaganda from other bubbles that aren't their own (hence everyone on the left seeing Fox News for what is... and everyone on the right seeing CNN/MSNBC for what they are). Many of the resources within each bubble are dedicated to exposing the propaganda of other bubbles. A bubble's inhabitants do less well at recognizing and acknowledging the propaganda of their own bubble, however. Democracies are basically (thought) bubble blowing contests. Its not quite the market place of ideas we wanted or hoped for... but its what we have today, and its still preferable to the alternative, where there's only one despot-controlled bubble - and so we don't even realize that bubbles exist at all - or if we do, we don't mention it out loud, if we know whats "good" for us.