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You misunderstood. I'm not saying the Soviet system was better or anything like that. I'm saying it's interesting to realize that everyone on all sides are fed

by grecy 7y ago

You misunderstood. I'm not saying the Soviet system was better or anything like that. I'm saying it's interesting to realize that everyone on all sides are fed propaganda. As 'siracusa23' points out, he is very aware that both Americans and Soviets continue to be fed propaganda. What I said was that today, the vast majority of Americans have no idea they are constantly being fed propaganda, and they openly take offence if you say as much.

leftyted 7y ago
The reason why Americans deny that they are fed propaganda is because the kind of propaganda that exists in America is subtle. It doesn't involve jailing or killing dissidents. Your post (and the parent post) omitted that distinction. My argument is that this distinction matters.
- grecy 7y ago
  > The reason why Americans deny that they are fed propaganda is because the kind of propaganda that exists in America is subtle I'm assuming your American. As someone who is not, but has spent a number of years there, I can tell you it's anything but subtle. Let's face it, your government convinces the people to spend trillions on wars while you have the lowest standard of living in the developed world. Regular citizens in America have a worse life than people in other OECD countires, but you're OK with it, because "rah, rah America". > It doesn't involve jailing or killing dissidents. Plenty of people were jailed in the occupy wall street peaceful demonstrations. Open your eyes. It Also includes executing American citizens without trial [1], testing on huamns against their consent[2], overthrowing democratically elected leaders [3], etc. etc. I could go on and on. The fact you're inside it, and being subjected to it, means you can't see it clearly. That's why I said it's interesting 'siracusa23' can. He/she has more perspective than you (and I'm willing to bet the majority of Americans) [1] https://theintercept.com/2017/01/30/obama-killed-a-16-year-old-american-in-yemen-trump-just-killed-his-8-year-old-sister/ https://theintercept.com/2017/01/30/obama-killed-a-16-year-o... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical_human_experimentation_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical_human_experimentatio... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_intervention_in_Chile https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_intervention_in_...
  - nate_meurer 7y ago
    We have huge problems with policing in this country, no doubt. This is simply not comparable to the systemic oppression and persecution of political and ethnic undesirables in places like China. Note that millions of us Americans who are disgusted with systemic racism and authoritarian overreach in our country are free to discuss it openly, assemble in opposition, and vote our conscience. Do you imagine a person in China is likewise free to engage in a public discussion about Uyghur concentration camps?
    - grecy 7y ago
      You're missing my point entirely. Americans have no idea they are being fed propaganda. That's my point. That's what I said right back at the start. It's not relevant what a person in China can or can't do.
      - nate_meurer 7y ago
        No, that's not the only point you've been arguing. In response to the assertion that American dissidents are not jailed or killed as a matter of policy, you responded with this: > Plenty of people were jailed in the occupy wall street peaceful demonstrations. Open your eyes. My argument is that this is a bullshit, apples-to-oranges distraction. I'm sorry to be so blunt. > Americans have no idea they are being fed propaganda. What "Americans" are you talking about? You're talking to an American right now. There are millions of us fully aware that we're swimming in spin, biased reporting, and government misinformation. If anything, seeing propaganda everywhere we look has become a bit of an American pastime. Regardless, look around at this forum; I can't count how many heated debates we've had on HN about the dark, rotten corners of this country's past and present. Everything from the genocide of the Native Americans to the Lost Cause, the Iraq War, Snowden, what have you. It's bizarre that you can invoke the deaths of American protesters at the hands of the police, and then condemn Americans' collective gullibility and disinterest as though it's somehow comparable, in any fucking way whatsoever, to things like the Great Firewall. They are not comparable. You and I agree on more things than not. But on some topics like this, I really think you get carried away with sweeping and reactionary generalizations that don't help your case.

by grecy 7y ago

leftyted 7y ago

The reason why Americans deny that they are fed propaganda is because the kind of propaganda that exists in America is subtle. It doesn't involve jailing or killing dissidents. Your post (and the parent post) omitted that distinction. My argument is that this distinction matters.

grecy 7y ago
> The reason why Americans deny that they are fed propaganda is because the kind of propaganda that exists in America is subtle I'm assuming your American. As someone who is not, but has spent a number of years there, I can tell you it's anything but subtle. Let's face it, your government convinces the people to spend trillions on wars while you have the lowest standard of living in the developed world. Regular citizens in America have a worse life than people in other OECD countires, but you're OK with it, because "rah, rah America". > It doesn't involve jailing or killing dissidents. Plenty of people were jailed in the occupy wall street peaceful demonstrations. Open your eyes. It Also includes executing American citizens without trial [1], testing on huamns against their consent[2], overthrowing democratically elected leaders [3], etc. etc. I could go on and on. The fact you're inside it, and being subjected to it, means you can't see it clearly. That's why I said it's interesting 'siracusa23' can. He/she has more perspective than you (and I'm willing to bet the majority of Americans) [1] https://theintercept.com/2017/01/30/obama-killed-a-16-year-old-american-in-yemen-trump-just-killed-his-8-year-old-sister/ https://theintercept.com/2017/01/30/obama-killed-a-16-year-o... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical_human_experimentation_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical_human_experimentatio... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_intervention_in_Chile https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_intervention_in_...
- nate_meurer 7y ago
  We have huge problems with policing in this country, no doubt. This is simply not comparable to the systemic oppression and persecution of political and ethnic undesirables in places like China. Note that millions of us Americans who are disgusted with systemic racism and authoritarian overreach in our country are free to discuss it openly, assemble in opposition, and vote our conscience. Do you imagine a person in China is likewise free to engage in a public discussion about Uyghur concentration camps?
  - grecy 7y ago
    You're missing my point entirely. Americans have no idea they are being fed propaganda. That's my point. That's what I said right back at the start. It's not relevant what a person in China can or can't do.
    - nate_meurer 7y ago
      No, that's not the only point you've been arguing. In response to the assertion that American dissidents are not jailed or killed as a matter of policy, you responded with this: > Plenty of people were jailed in the occupy wall street peaceful demonstrations. Open your eyes. My argument is that this is a bullshit, apples-to-oranges distraction. I'm sorry to be so blunt. > Americans have no idea they are being fed propaganda. What "Americans" are you talking about? You're talking to an American right now. There are millions of us fully aware that we're swimming in spin, biased reporting, and government misinformation. If anything, seeing propaganda everywhere we look has become a bit of an American pastime. Regardless, look around at this forum; I can't count how many heated debates we've had on HN about the dark, rotten corners of this country's past and present. Everything from the genocide of the Native Americans to the Lost Cause, the Iraq War, Snowden, what have you. It's bizarre that you can invoke the deaths of American protesters at the hands of the police, and then condemn Americans' collective gullibility and disinterest as though it's somehow comparable, in any fucking way whatsoever, to things like the Great Firewall. They are not comparable. You and I agree on more things than not. But on some topics like this, I really think you get carried away with sweeping and reactionary generalizations that don't help your case.