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I seem to recall there was a similar article about psilocybin on HN just a few days ago. While there certainly might be some therapeutic use for psychedelics,

I seem to recall there was a similar article about psilocybin on HN just a few days ago. While there certainly might be some therapeutic use for psychedelics, they are a very unpredictable instrument. I think this recently re-emerging trend of attributing them with almost magical cure-all qualities is risky at best. You might certainly have a blissful, life-altering experience with a prolonged positive afterglow, but you could also end up in a hellish, confused world of angst and terror for what seems like an eternity, and feel excruciatingly hollow for weeks or months afterwards. The latter can of course be devastating to someone suffering from depression, anxiety or other psychological ailments.

pmoriarty 7y ago
"you could also end up in a hellish, confused world of angst and terror for what seems like an eternity" This is why it's incredibly important (especially for super powerful psychedelics) to prepare properly, take them in a safe place with an experienced person you like and trust, and integrate the experience afterwards in to your life. That said, even difficult experiences might ultimately benefit you, if you try to learn from them and integrate them properly (perhaps with the aid of a therapist). James Fadiman's Psychedelics Explorer's Guide[1] has a lot of great information on making the most of one's psychedelic experience, and doing so safely and constructively. You could also maximize the chance the experience will be a good and constructive one by doing it in a therapeutic, shamanic, or sacred context. But make sure to vet whoever you do it with thoroughly, as there have been some abuses by people in power in these contexts before (I'm particularly thinking of reports of rapes by shamen in Peru, and other reports of DMT facilitators shocking users with tazers or forcing water or tobacco snuff up their nose/mouth during the experience). Be safe people! [1] - https://www.amazon.com/Psychedelic-Explorers-Guide-Therapeutic-Journeys/dp/1594774021/ https://www.amazon.com/Psychedelic-Explorers-Guide-Therapeut...
sibeliuss 7y ago
This is such a critical point. Without a lot of psychedelic experience under ones belt this state can come as a surprise and cause difficulty with integration. (Well, even with a lot of experience, the same can happen.) A recent experience with this substance took me to a very bleak place in order to remind me what it means to live. I had to metaphorically crawl, uphill and on ice, back to life. It was very, very difficult. I'm grateful. However, time does not behave in a normal way in this space and things had to be put back together, slowly. That being said, understanding the risks and going into the experience without expectation -- with a trained guide, in a safe setting -- can significantly alter the outcome in ones favor. These medicines are powerful and potentially life-changing free agents inside of the mind -- to change in such a way means releasing a lot of psychic baggage. It can be unsettling, but there can also be a lot to gain. It's important to be educated.
newnewpdro 7y ago
In small doses their effects are far more deterministic, and seem to still be beneficial even when too subtle to notice any immediate acute effects. Though I do agree with your position when it comes to higher "trip" doses. I think we should make a point to accompany any such warnings with a mention that these substances are still very useful in small doses. I've come to view the "trip" doses in genreal as over doses, since the small doses are still so useful without the unpredictable madness. We shouldn't forget anything can be dangerous in large enough doses. The difference between poison and medicine is generally in the dosage.
Trasmatta 7y ago
> but you could also end up in a hellish, confused world of angst and terror for what seems like an eternity, and feel excruciatingly hollow for weeks or months afterwards. The latter can of course be devastating to someone suffering from depression, anxiety or other psychological ailments. Yep, exactly this. I'm about a month past my bad trip, and I'm still dealing with the negative after effects (anxiety, some depression, and occasional DP/DR). I wasn't an overly anxious or depressed person before. I am definitely feeling better than I was a couple weeks ago, and I feel like with more time I'll continue to heal, and get mostly back to normal (although "normal" now means something different to me). People who haven't been there just can't understand the hell that you can potentially go through on high doses of psychedelics. Take the worst experience of your life, then multiply it several times. Now, strip out your ego, and throw yourself into the infinite expanse of space. Then give yourself the absolute surety that you will be in this state for all of eternity. There is no doubt in your mind that you will never escape. That's sort of what it feels like.
- sibeliuss 7y ago
  Out of curiosity, was this with 5meo?
  - Trasmatta 7y ago
    No, it was DXM. Which is technically a dissociative, not a psychedelic. But at high dosages, it can have many similar properties to psychedelics, and the experience of a "bad trip" is very similar. I was stupid and took way too much without being prepared. My comment isn't really meant to be a "don't do psychedelics kids", but a warning story for those that might decide to be dumb like I was. If people are going to do them, respect the drug, do low dosages, do lots of research, and follow harm reduction guidelines. The alternative is the potential to experience a level of suffering that's really completely unimaginable.
DanBC 7y ago
> I think this recently re-emerging trend of attributing them with almost magical cure-all qualities is risky at best. ...and it's somewhat surprising, because we said the same things about benzos (which turned out to be pretty harmful), tricyclics, and SSRIs. When Prozac was released people were talking about "better than well" and saying the medicine licensing system was broken because only ill people could get hold of prozac and we were depriving other people of this substance that would improve their lives. SSRIs are useful, but they're not magic. Carefully used psychedelics are likely to be similar: really good for some people, not much use for others.

pmoriarty 7y ago

"you could also end up in a hellish, confused world of angst and terror for what seems like an eternity" This is why it's incredibly important (especially for super powerful psychedelics) to prepare properly, take them in a safe place with an experienced person you like and trust, and integrate the experience afterwards in to your life. That said, even difficult experiences might ultimately benefit you, if you try to learn from them and integrate them properly (perhaps with the aid of a therapist). James Fadiman's Psychedelics Explorer's Guide[1] has a lot of great information on making the most of one's psychedelic experience, and doing so safely and constructively. You could also maximize the chance the experience will be a good and constructive one by doing it in a therapeutic, shamanic, or sacred context. But make sure to vet whoever you do it with thoroughly, as there have been some abuses by people in power in these contexts before (I'm particularly thinking of reports of rapes by shamen in Peru, and other reports of DMT facilitators shocking users with tazers or forcing water or tobacco snuff up their nose/mouth during the experience). Be safe people! [1] - https://www.amazon.com/Psychedelic-Explorers-Guide-Therapeutic-Journeys/dp/1594774021/ https://www.amazon.com/Psychedelic-Explorers-Guide-Therapeut...

sibeliuss 7y ago

This is such a critical point. Without a lot of psychedelic experience under ones belt this state can come as a surprise and cause difficulty with integration. (Well, even with a lot of experience, the same can happen.) A recent experience with this substance took me to a very bleak place in order to remind me what it means to live. I had to metaphorically crawl, uphill and on ice, back to life. It was very, very difficult. I'm grateful. However, time does not behave in a normal way in this space and things had to be put back together, slowly. That being said, understanding the risks and going into the experience without expectation -- with a trained guide, in a safe setting -- can significantly alter the outcome in ones favor. These medicines are powerful and potentially life-changing free agents inside of the mind -- to change in such a way means releasing a lot of psychic baggage. It can be unsettling, but there can also be a lot to gain. It's important to be educated.

newnewpdro 7y ago

In small doses their effects are far more deterministic, and seem to still be beneficial even when too subtle to notice any immediate acute effects. Though I do agree with your position when it comes to higher "trip" doses. I think we should make a point to accompany any such warnings with a mention that these substances are still very useful in small doses. I've come to view the "trip" doses in genreal as over doses, since the small doses are still so useful without the unpredictable madness. We shouldn't forget anything can be dangerous in large enough doses. The difference between poison and medicine is generally in the dosage.

Trasmatta 7y ago

> but you could also end up in a hellish, confused world of angst and terror for what seems like an eternity, and feel excruciatingly hollow for weeks or months afterwards. The latter can of course be devastating to someone suffering from depression, anxiety or other psychological ailments. Yep, exactly this. I'm about a month past my bad trip, and I'm still dealing with the negative after effects (anxiety, some depression, and occasional DP/DR). I wasn't an overly anxious or depressed person before. I am definitely feeling better than I was a couple weeks ago, and I feel like with more time I'll continue to heal, and get mostly back to normal (although "normal" now means something different to me). People who haven't been there just can't understand the hell that you can potentially go through on high doses of psychedelics. Take the worst experience of your life, then multiply it several times. Now, strip out your ego, and throw yourself into the infinite expanse of space. Then give yourself the absolute surety that you will be in this state for all of eternity. There is no doubt in your mind that you will never escape. That's sort of what it feels like.

sibeliuss 7y ago
Out of curiosity, was this with 5meo?
- Trasmatta 7y ago
  No, it was DXM. Which is technically a dissociative, not a psychedelic. But at high dosages, it can have many similar properties to psychedelics, and the experience of a "bad trip" is very similar. I was stupid and took way too much without being prepared. My comment isn't really meant to be a "don't do psychedelics kids", but a warning story for those that might decide to be dumb like I was. If people are going to do them, respect the drug, do low dosages, do lots of research, and follow harm reduction guidelines. The alternative is the potential to experience a level of suffering that's really completely unimaginable.

DanBC 7y ago

> I think this recently re-emerging trend of attributing them with almost magical cure-all qualities is risky at best. ...and it's somewhat surprising, because we said the same things about benzos (which turned out to be pretty harmful), tricyclics, and SSRIs. When Prozac was released people were talking about "better than well" and saying the medicine licensing system was broken because only ill people could get hold of prozac and we were depriving other people of this substance that would improve their lives. SSRIs are useful, but they're not magic. Carefully used psychedelics are likely to be similar: really good for some people, not much use for others.