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There's a huge difference between "manufacture of consent" type propaganda, in which the citizenry is complicit in its own indoctrination, and Soviet-style prop

There's a huge difference between "manufacture of consent" type propaganda, in which the citizenry is complicit in its own indoctrination, and Soviet-style propaganda where there was no free press and people were killed and jailed for criticizing the government. Wondering aloud if the Soviet system might not be better "because at least people were aware of it" is shocking and cruel.

rayiner 7y ago
The “everybody is the same” rhetoric lacks basic credibility. We’ve lived through three years of the media calling the chief executive a nazi, racist white supremacist, foreign agent, the harbinger of the downfall of the country. Can you imagine that happening in Russia or China?
- kamaal 7y ago
  Im not an American but it can be argued the US was not built from the same social situations Russia, China or any post colonial emerging power was built from. US for almost all practical purpose for most of its existence is an extended Britain. And for the remaining part the best result of European colonialism. The US is basically Europe. There are now differences of course, but the bigger story is this. By and large Russia and China are the result of revolutions, that were attained in the climate of what was then the dominant political and economic narrative of the time. The fact that countries like China and Russia have done whatever they have done what it took Europe and its colonies centuries to do is in itself a huge proof of success, if you want to measure it that way.
grecy 7y ago
You misunderstood. I'm not saying the Soviet system was better or anything like that. I'm saying it's interesting to realize that everyone on all sides are fed propaganda. As 'siracusa23' points out, he is very aware that both Americans and Soviets continue to be fed propaganda. What I said was that today, the vast majority of Americans have no idea they are constantly being fed propaganda, and they openly take offence if you say as much.
- leftyted 7y ago
  The reason why Americans deny that they are fed propaganda is because the kind of propaganda that exists in America is subtle. It doesn't involve jailing or killing dissidents. Your post (and the parent post) omitted that distinction. My argument is that this distinction matters.
  - grecy 7y ago
    > The reason why Americans deny that they are fed propaganda is because the kind of propaganda that exists in America is subtle I'm assuming your American. As someone who is not, but has spent a number of years there, I can tell you it's anything but subtle. Let's face it, your government convinces the people to spend trillions on wars while you have the lowest standard of living in the developed world. Regular citizens in America have a worse life than people in other OECD countires, but you're OK with it, because "rah, rah America". > It doesn't involve jailing or killing dissidents. Plenty of people were jailed in the occupy wall street peaceful demonstrations. Open your eyes. It Also includes executing American citizens without trial [1], testing on huamns against their consent[2], overthrowing democratically elected leaders [3], etc. etc. I could go on and on. The fact you're inside it, and being subjected to it, means you can't see it clearly. That's why I said it's interesting 'siracusa23' can. He/she has more perspective than you (and I'm willing to bet the majority of Americans) [1] https://theintercept.com/2017/01/30/obama-killed-a-16-year-old-american-in-yemen-trump-just-killed-his-8-year-old-sister/ https://theintercept.com/2017/01/30/obama-killed-a-16-year-o... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical_human_experimentation_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical_human_experimentatio... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_intervention_in_Chile https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_intervention_in_...
    - nate_meurer 7y ago
      We have huge problems with policing in this country, no doubt. This is simply not comparable to the systemic oppression and persecution of political and ethnic undesirables in places like China. Note that millions of us Americans who are disgusted with systemic racism and authoritarian overreach in our country are free to discuss it openly, assemble in opposition, and vote our conscience. Do you imagine a person in China is likewise free to engage in a public discussion about Uyghur concentration camps?
dragonwriter 7y ago
> There's a huge difference between "manufacture of consent" type propaganda, in which the citizenry is complicit in its own indoctrination “manfactured consent” is top-down, elite-driven propaganda that the general citizenry isn't any more complicit in than is the case with authoritarian propaganda. It's different than authoritarian propaganda in that it isn't centrally directed by the state, per se, (on the other hand since it is elite-directed by the same elites to whom the state apparatua is subservient, that difference is less significant than it might appear at first.) It's also different in that while there is a significant degree of commonality, the elites that it serves have competing interests which results in diversity and conflicts in the propaganda.

rayiner 7y ago

The “everybody is the same” rhetoric lacks basic credibility. We’ve lived through three years of the media calling the chief executive a nazi, racist white supremacist, foreign agent, the harbinger of the downfall of the country. Can you imagine that happening in Russia or China?

kamaal 7y ago
Im not an American but it can be argued the US was not built from the same social situations Russia, China or any post colonial emerging power was built from. US for almost all practical purpose for most of its existence is an extended Britain. And for the remaining part the best result of European colonialism. The US is basically Europe. There are now differences of course, but the bigger story is this. By and large Russia and China are the result of revolutions, that were attained in the climate of what was then the dominant political and economic narrative of the time. The fact that countries like China and Russia have done whatever they have done what it took Europe and its colonies centuries to do is in itself a huge proof of success, if you want to measure it that way.

grecy 7y ago

You misunderstood. I'm not saying the Soviet system was better or anything like that. I'm saying it's interesting to realize that everyone on all sides are fed propaganda. As 'siracusa23' points out, he is very aware that both Americans and Soviets continue to be fed propaganda. What I said was that today, the vast majority of Americans have no idea they are constantly being fed propaganda, and they openly take offence if you say as much.

leftyted 7y ago
The reason why Americans deny that they are fed propaganda is because the kind of propaganda that exists in America is subtle. It doesn't involve jailing or killing dissidents. Your post (and the parent post) omitted that distinction. My argument is that this distinction matters.
- grecy 7y ago
  > The reason why Americans deny that they are fed propaganda is because the kind of propaganda that exists in America is subtle I'm assuming your American. As someone who is not, but has spent a number of years there, I can tell you it's anything but subtle. Let's face it, your government convinces the people to spend trillions on wars while you have the lowest standard of living in the developed world. Regular citizens in America have a worse life than people in other OECD countires, but you're OK with it, because "rah, rah America". > It doesn't involve jailing or killing dissidents. Plenty of people were jailed in the occupy wall street peaceful demonstrations. Open your eyes. It Also includes executing American citizens without trial [1], testing on huamns against their consent[2], overthrowing democratically elected leaders [3], etc. etc. I could go on and on. The fact you're inside it, and being subjected to it, means you can't see it clearly. That's why I said it's interesting 'siracusa23' can. He/she has more perspective than you (and I'm willing to bet the majority of Americans) [1] https://theintercept.com/2017/01/30/obama-killed-a-16-year-old-american-in-yemen-trump-just-killed-his-8-year-old-sister/ https://theintercept.com/2017/01/30/obama-killed-a-16-year-o... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical_human_experimentation_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical_human_experimentatio... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_intervention_in_Chile https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_intervention_in_...
  - nate_meurer 7y ago
    We have huge problems with policing in this country, no doubt. This is simply not comparable to the systemic oppression and persecution of political and ethnic undesirables in places like China. Note that millions of us Americans who are disgusted with systemic racism and authoritarian overreach in our country are free to discuss it openly, assemble in opposition, and vote our conscience. Do you imagine a person in China is likewise free to engage in a public discussion about Uyghur concentration camps?

dragonwriter 7y ago

> There's a huge difference between "manufacture of consent" type propaganda, in which the citizenry is complicit in its own indoctrination “manfactured consent” is top-down, elite-driven propaganda that the general citizenry isn't any more complicit in than is the case with authoritarian propaganda. It's different than authoritarian propaganda in that it isn't centrally directed by the state, per se, (on the other hand since it is elite-directed by the same elites to whom the state apparatua is subservient, that difference is less significant than it might appear at first.) It's also different in that while there is a significant degree of commonality, the elites that it serves have competing interests which results in diversity and conflicts in the propaganda.