4 ms·

> highly susceptible to YAGNI premature abstraction I think in most cases this sentiment is correct but I think Blow's argument is that you are going to need i

> highly susceptible to YAGNI premature abstraction I think in most cases this sentiment is correct but I think Blow's argument is that you are going to need it. In other talks he put forth some use cases where this has worked for him and his game dev studio. The most abstract version of this argument: 1. A compiler is a tool to help the programmer 2. Compilers for the Rust programming language help the programmer by validating the program to be within a subset of all computable programs that operate within the language's rules (the borrow checker and type system) 3. there are likely many programs that are computable and correct that cannot be modeled within Rust's safety system (see most of the world's software to date) 4. For some use cases the most optimal solution may not fall within the subset of programs that Rust allows 5. Because of this it may be impossible for Rust to implement the most optimal solutions for some programs. Blow's goal of making compilation describable within the language itself brings forward a huge set of features that other languages need a runtime or complex compiler to do. Things like code generation, reflection, metaprogramming, linting, and correctness validation could simply be packages you install with a package manager. If the language is kept at a minimal feature set and complexity with an advanced enough metaprogramming phase entire language features and abstractions can be implemented in this step. For example imaging being able to do something like `import grpc; import application.proto` and all of the gRPC magic happening without any complex build system at the full native speed of the compiled language with no runtime deps. I'm not saying Blow is correct, I'm just saying it is a very interesting direction to take programming languages: weak guarantees but completely programmable.

nordsieck 7y ago
> Blow's goal of making compilation describable within the language itself brings forward a huge set of features that other languages need a runtime or complex compiler to do. Things like code generation, reflection, metaprogramming, linting, and correctness validation could simply be packages you install with a package manager. If the language is kept at a minimal feature set and complexity with an advanced enough metaprogramming phase entire language features and abstractions can be implemented in this step. I know you're not advocating for Lisp, but it kind of sounds like you are.
- samatman 7y ago
  I love Lisp as much as the next neckbeard, but macros aren't unique to Lisp and they aren't the only kind of compile-time execution. It's tough to come up with a better syntax than sexprs for writing macros in, that's clearly true. A number of recent languages have managed good-enough macros, Nim and Rust being two examples.
  - nimmer 7y ago
    > good-enough macros, Nim That's an understatement. Nim's macros and templates are one of its best features.
jupp0r 7y ago
I have not listened to the podcast, but the example regarding entity pointers not outliving the frame would be something Rust is really good at. The borrow checker can make sure that references to entities are strictly contained within the lifetime of a frame container and statically check that aspect. > Because what’s an entity pointer vs a pointer to something else? The compiler doesn’t know that Rusts compiler can know the difference and it can check lifetimes around that. Lifetimes can be made part of the type of the pointer.
- gravypod 7y ago
  Pointers living through a render pass aren't the main use case he is interested in. It's a problem space that many engineers are familiar with so it's easy to talk about. Game developers have some very domain-specific problems that are less common outside of game engines. A more detailed description of his opinions are laid out here where he goes into much more detail about his experiences porting The Witness to mobile (I think): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4t1K66dMhWk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4t1K66dMhWk

nordsieck 7y ago

> Blow's goal of making compilation describable within the language itself brings forward a huge set of features that other languages need a runtime or complex compiler to do. Things like code generation, reflection, metaprogramming, linting, and correctness validation could simply be packages you install with a package manager. If the language is kept at a minimal feature set and complexity with an advanced enough metaprogramming phase entire language features and abstractions can be implemented in this step. I know you're not advocating for Lisp, but it kind of sounds like you are.

samatman 7y ago
I love Lisp as much as the next neckbeard, but macros aren't unique to Lisp and they aren't the only kind of compile-time execution. It's tough to come up with a better syntax than sexprs for writing macros in, that's clearly true. A number of recent languages have managed good-enough macros, Nim and Rust being two examples.
- nimmer 7y ago
  > good-enough macros, Nim That's an understatement. Nim's macros and templates are one of its best features.

jupp0r 7y ago

I have not listened to the podcast, but the example regarding entity pointers not outliving the frame would be something Rust is really good at. The borrow checker can make sure that references to entities are strictly contained within the lifetime of a frame container and statically check that aspect. > Because what’s an entity pointer vs a pointer to something else? The compiler doesn’t know that Rusts compiler can know the difference and it can check lifetimes around that. Lifetimes can be made part of the type of the pointer.

gravypod 7y ago
Pointers living through a render pass aren't the main use case he is interested in. It's a problem space that many engineers are familiar with so it's easy to talk about. Game developers have some very domain-specific problems that are less common outside of game engines. A more detailed description of his opinions are laid out here where he goes into much more detail about his experiences porting The Witness to mobile (I think): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4t1K66dMhWk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4t1K66dMhWk