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> But I guess each one of us is a victim of a propaganda machine I would say the enormous difference is that you are aware of it, while the vast majority of Am

by grecy 7y ago

> But I guess each one of us is a victim of a propaganda machine I would say the enormous difference is that you are aware of it, while the vast majority of Americas are utterly clueless. In fact they often take extreme offence at the very mention their media contains propaganda.

nate_meurer 7y ago
Stongly disagree. The relevant (and enormous) difference is that Americans are empowered to learn of and discuss their sordid affairs, without fear of punishment by their government. Just like we're doing right now, with me using my real name. In contrast, people in countries like China and the old USSR are empowered only to learn of and share state-approved knowledge, in a state-approved manner. Stepping too far outside these boundaries often leads to imprisonment or worse.
- siracusa23 7y ago
  Yes, we were afraid of repercussions, but "imprisonment or worse" seems like the same stereotype we had with Americans all walking with guns on the street like it's a western movie, smoking Malboro and listening to rock music. The repercussions were social mostly, your boss would not promote you anymore, your neighbours would avoid you. Only in cases of high-treason, such as Assange from WikiLeaks, you would get "imprisonment or worse". Think to how PC culture works in the US. If you're misoginistic, your friends will start avoiding you, you might even get fired. And no, people did not learn through state-approved knowledge, we had conspiracy theories, we had friends, uncles and friends having friends working inside the government.
  - nate_meurer 7y ago
    > Only in cases of high-treason, such as Assange from WikiLeaks, you would get "imprisonment or worse". So, "high-treason" must have included religious offenses, attempting to leave the USSR, independent journalism, cultural and literary nonconformism, activism of any almost any kind, and any other sort of activity deemed undesirable to the state. Is that right? > And no, people did not learn through state-approved knowledge, we had conspiracy theories, we had friends, uncles and friends having friends working inside the government. Conspiracy theories and rumors are not comparable to the robust freedom of expression we enjoy in the West -- a freedom that we take advantage of on this very forum, where we are free to share information and criticize our Western governments however we please, anonymously or not. If you're interested in learning about the USSR's treatment of people who spoke against the state, the accounts of the dissidents themselves makes excellent reading. There are entire libraries dedicated to preserving the experience of people imprisoned and killed for crimes of expression in the USSR and its satellites, written in their own words. I don't know if you really intended to compare the imprisonment and murder of people for crimes of expression, religion, or ethnicity under authoritarian states to the PC movement in the West, but if you are, I have to question whether you actually experienced the former.
siracusa23 7y ago
I lived under the USSR, American and European propaganda machine, they are all the same. You get tired of them as you get to my age. I'm pretty sure that rayiner's comment exists mirrored on a random Chinese forum. Someone being offended by a comparison of China and US (implying China is better). We're all the same.
- leftyted 7y ago
  No they aren't the same. The Americans and the Europeans didn't have a gulag. The Chinese are "reeducating" millions of people right now. I hope when I get to your age I don't magically forget that slavery and concentration camps are bad.
  - rayiner 7y ago
    Don’t forget tens of millions of people dying thanks to collectivized farming.
  - siracusa23 7y ago
    No, that's wrong, the Americans forced us to host your gulags in our countries, besides torture they were also doing human experimentation. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/inside-romanias-secret-cia-prison-6273973.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/inside-roman... https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/15/cia-torture-human-experimentation-doctors https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/15/cia-torture-...
    - leftyted 7y ago
      The gulag hosted ~20 million people. How many people went through rendition? Your attempt to equate these things is frankly shocking.
      - siracusa23 7y ago
        Is this about numbers? Or the fact that both countries did something horrific? How about how many wars the Americans started? How many people killed, left without homes? How about the fact that Americans bombed the Japanese? Why can't people accept that bad is bad no matter who does it or how many times they do it. This is not you vs. me, democrats vs. republicans, conservative vs. liberals, Russia vs. US, it's not the divide and conquer of the American propaganda. I'm not defending the USSR, Europe or US. I'm saying all are bad and all of them have done horrifying things, the only thing we can do is to hope that we can become better. And this can only be done if we stop saying "oh but he did it worse/first, mom" but understand that we need to do better.
davrosthedalek 7y ago
Not quite, many are happy to accept that what the media of the opposing view is doing is propaganda. "MSM" vs FOX and OANN. And quite frankly both sides are right.
leftyted 7y ago
There's a huge difference between "manufacture of consent" type propaganda, in which the citizenry is complicit in its own indoctrination, and Soviet-style propaganda where there was no free press and people were killed and jailed for criticizing the government. Wondering aloud if the Soviet system might not be better "because at least people were aware of it" is shocking and cruel.
- rayiner 7y ago
  The “everybody is the same” rhetoric lacks basic credibility. We’ve lived through three years of the media calling the chief executive a nazi, racist white supremacist, foreign agent, the harbinger of the downfall of the country. Can you imagine that happening in Russia or China?
  - kamaal 7y ago
    Im not an American but it can be argued the US was not built from the same social situations Russia, China or any post colonial emerging power was built from. US for almost all practical purpose for most of its existence is an extended Britain. And for the remaining part the best result of European colonialism. The US is basically Europe. There are now differences of course, but the bigger story is this. By and large Russia and China are the result of revolutions, that were attained in the climate of what was then the dominant political and economic narrative of the time. The fact that countries like China and Russia have done whatever they have done what it took Europe and its colonies centuries to do is in itself a huge proof of success, if you want to measure it that way.
- grecy 7y ago
  You misunderstood. I'm not saying the Soviet system was better or anything like that. I'm saying it's interesting to realize that everyone on all sides are fed propaganda. As 'siracusa23' points out, he is very aware that both Americans and Soviets continue to be fed propaganda. What I said was that today, the vast majority of Americans have no idea they are constantly being fed propaganda, and they openly take offence if you say as much.
dang 7y ago
You've crossed back into nationalistic flamebait repeatedly in this thread, which we just recently asked you not to do. Would you please just stop posting generalized pejoratives about $NATION and $PEOPLE? In your case it's America and Americans, but it doesn't matter which particular nation someone has an issue with—it inevitably leads to increasingly low-quality and nasty internet discussion, which is just what we don't want here. I know you're not doing this intentionally, but it's always many times more obvious to readers than it is to the commenter. Multiply the possible effects of such a comment by 100x and you'll get a more accurate picture of how this sounds. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22219018 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22219018.
- grecy 7y ago
  Sure dang, I'll stop. I personally found is fascinating that a person from the USSR (famous for propaganda) had the insight and self awareness to say they're very aware that every country is a propaganda machine, though while I was in the US for 5 months last year I met many people who had no idea they're in one too. I would say the same is true in Australia, and Canada (the other countries I've lived in) At no point was I trying to say America is crap (like many people assumed) and I tried to say that on two separate occasions, but all the other comments just jumped back to "American isn't as bad as china" (which is unrelated to my insight above). But yes, I'll stop.
  - dang 7y ago
    Imagine reading a comment about how 'interesting' it is that other countries have 'insight and self-awareness' while yours doesn't. It's not hard to see how that would land as a slight. "You're in a propaganda machine" is one hop from "Wake up sheeple". That's a cliché of internet fulmination because it never works. Posting like this is pushing a button that generates angry responses. It's your responsibility not to push the button. (Not that that's always easy, since we usually do it inadvertently.)
    - 7y ago
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

by grecy 7y ago

nate_meurer 7y ago

Stongly disagree. The relevant (and enormous) difference is that Americans are empowered to learn of and discuss their sordid affairs, without fear of punishment by their government. Just like we're doing right now, with me using my real name. In contrast, people in countries like China and the old USSR are empowered only to learn of and share state-approved knowledge, in a state-approved manner. Stepping too far outside these boundaries often leads to imprisonment or worse.

siracusa23 7y ago
Yes, we were afraid of repercussions, but "imprisonment or worse" seems like the same stereotype we had with Americans all walking with guns on the street like it's a western movie, smoking Malboro and listening to rock music. The repercussions were social mostly, your boss would not promote you anymore, your neighbours would avoid you. Only in cases of high-treason, such as Assange from WikiLeaks, you would get "imprisonment or worse". Think to how PC culture works in the US. If you're misoginistic, your friends will start avoiding you, you might even get fired. And no, people did not learn through state-approved knowledge, we had conspiracy theories, we had friends, uncles and friends having friends working inside the government.
- nate_meurer 7y ago
  > Only in cases of high-treason, such as Assange from WikiLeaks, you would get "imprisonment or worse". So, "high-treason" must have included religious offenses, attempting to leave the USSR, independent journalism, cultural and literary nonconformism, activism of any almost any kind, and any other sort of activity deemed undesirable to the state. Is that right? > And no, people did not learn through state-approved knowledge, we had conspiracy theories, we had friends, uncles and friends having friends working inside the government. Conspiracy theories and rumors are not comparable to the robust freedom of expression we enjoy in the West -- a freedom that we take advantage of on this very forum, where we are free to share information and criticize our Western governments however we please, anonymously or not. If you're interested in learning about the USSR's treatment of people who spoke against the state, the accounts of the dissidents themselves makes excellent reading. There are entire libraries dedicated to preserving the experience of people imprisoned and killed for crimes of expression in the USSR and its satellites, written in their own words. I don't know if you really intended to compare the imprisonment and murder of people for crimes of expression, religion, or ethnicity under authoritarian states to the PC movement in the West, but if you are, I have to question whether you actually experienced the former.

siracusa23 7y ago

I lived under the USSR, American and European propaganda machine, they are all the same. You get tired of them as you get to my age. I'm pretty sure that rayiner's comment exists mirrored on a random Chinese forum. Someone being offended by a comparison of China and US (implying China is better). We're all the same.

leftyted 7y ago
No they aren't the same. The Americans and the Europeans didn't have a gulag. The Chinese are "reeducating" millions of people right now. I hope when I get to your age I don't magically forget that slavery and concentration camps are bad.
- rayiner 7y ago
  Don’t forget tens of millions of people dying thanks to collectivized farming.
- siracusa23 7y ago
  No, that's wrong, the Americans forced us to host your gulags in our countries, besides torture they were also doing human experimentation. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/inside-romanias-secret-cia-prison-6273973.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/inside-roman... https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/15/cia-torture-human-experimentation-doctors https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/15/cia-torture-...
  - leftyted 7y ago
    The gulag hosted ~20 million people. How many people went through rendition? Your attempt to equate these things is frankly shocking.
    - siracusa23 7y ago
      Is this about numbers? Or the fact that both countries did something horrific? How about how many wars the Americans started? How many people killed, left without homes? How about the fact that Americans bombed the Japanese? Why can't people accept that bad is bad no matter who does it or how many times they do it. This is not you vs. me, democrats vs. republicans, conservative vs. liberals, Russia vs. US, it's not the divide and conquer of the American propaganda. I'm not defending the USSR, Europe or US. I'm saying all are bad and all of them have done horrifying things, the only thing we can do is to hope that we can become better. And this can only be done if we stop saying "oh but he did it worse/first, mom" but understand that we need to do better.

davrosthedalek 7y ago

Not quite, many are happy to accept that what the media of the opposing view is doing is propaganda. "MSM" vs FOX and OANN. And quite frankly both sides are right.

leftyted 7y ago

There's a huge difference between "manufacture of consent" type propaganda, in which the citizenry is complicit in its own indoctrination, and Soviet-style propaganda where there was no free press and people were killed and jailed for criticizing the government. Wondering aloud if the Soviet system might not be better "because at least people were aware of it" is shocking and cruel.

rayiner 7y ago
The “everybody is the same” rhetoric lacks basic credibility. We’ve lived through three years of the media calling the chief executive a nazi, racist white supremacist, foreign agent, the harbinger of the downfall of the country. Can you imagine that happening in Russia or China?
- kamaal 7y ago
  Im not an American but it can be argued the US was not built from the same social situations Russia, China or any post colonial emerging power was built from. US for almost all practical purpose for most of its existence is an extended Britain. And for the remaining part the best result of European colonialism. The US is basically Europe. There are now differences of course, but the bigger story is this. By and large Russia and China are the result of revolutions, that were attained in the climate of what was then the dominant political and economic narrative of the time. The fact that countries like China and Russia have done whatever they have done what it took Europe and its colonies centuries to do is in itself a huge proof of success, if you want to measure it that way.
grecy 7y ago
You misunderstood. I'm not saying the Soviet system was better or anything like that. I'm saying it's interesting to realize that everyone on all sides are fed propaganda. As 'siracusa23' points out, he is very aware that both Americans and Soviets continue to be fed propaganda. What I said was that today, the vast majority of Americans have no idea they are constantly being fed propaganda, and they openly take offence if you say as much.

dang 7y ago

You've crossed back into nationalistic flamebait repeatedly in this thread, which we just recently asked you not to do. Would you please just stop posting generalized pejoratives about $NATION and $PEOPLE? In your case it's America and Americans, but it doesn't matter which particular nation someone has an issue with—it inevitably leads to increasingly low-quality and nasty internet discussion, which is just what we don't want here. I know you're not doing this intentionally, but it's always many times more obvious to readers than it is to the commenter. Multiply the possible effects of such a comment by 100x and you'll get a more accurate picture of how this sounds. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22219018 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22219018.

grecy 7y ago
Sure dang, I'll stop. I personally found is fascinating that a person from the USSR (famous for propaganda) had the insight and self awareness to say they're very aware that every country is a propaganda machine, though while I was in the US for 5 months last year I met many people who had no idea they're in one too. I would say the same is true in Australia, and Canada (the other countries I've lived in) At no point was I trying to say America is crap (like many people assumed) and I tried to say that on two separate occasions, but all the other comments just jumped back to "American isn't as bad as china" (which is unrelated to my insight above). But yes, I'll stop.
- dang 7y ago
  Imagine reading a comment about how 'interesting' it is that other countries have 'insight and self-awareness' while yours doesn't. It's not hard to see how that would land as a slight. "You're in a propaganda machine" is one hop from "Wake up sheeple". That's a cliché of internet fulmination because it never works. Posting like this is pushing a button that generates angry responses. It's your responsibility not to push the button. (Not that that's always easy, since we usually do it inadvertently.)
  - 7y ago

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]