4 ms·

> without UBI, there is a small number of people who die every year due to not having (sufficient) income If workers spend a few days per year to pay for your

by lixtra 7y ago

> without UBI, there is a small number of people who die every year due to not having (sufficient) income If workers spend a few days per year to pay for your ubi that takes away that time of their life. If they spend 1% of their life working for ubi it’s 1% of workers life lost. That’s asking quite a lot.

brockmuellers 7y ago
One could instead think of social programs, such as UBI, as insurance. People gladly pay >1% of income for insurance. I believe that nearly everyone has the potential to end up in the financial dumps (no one is above drug addiction, serious health problems, mental disorders, lawsuits etc). If a worker ends up there, they'll be glad to have the "insurance coverage" of UBI.
- lixtra 7y ago
  If that is so, why don’t you form an ubi society, whose members pay an ubi for everyone that wants to join (and net pay). According to you it won’t be difficult to find people that are glad to join. To the downvoters of my initial comment: I don’t want people to die on the street. But I doubt ubi is an adequate cure either.
  - CryptoBanker 7y ago
    When the people vote for UBI one day you'll have your society...
    - nybble41 7y ago
      ...whether you want it or not. Which misses the entire point of it being a society with voluntary membership.
pjc50 7y ago
Conversely, if we take 1% of a return on a capital asset, the owner spent zero hours labor for that, so they've lost none of their life ...
- lixtra 7y ago
  Except someone spend labor to amass that capital. If I considered saving no longer worthwhile, I wouldn’t consume more. I would work less and enjoy more free time. Of course this leads to over proportional less taxes for the state or ubi. I don’t see why you couldn’t try ubi in small scale by the fans. The most obvious reason why it wouldn’t work on small scale and only on state or global level is because supporters want someone else to pay for it.
  - pjc50 7y ago
    > is because supporters want someone else to pay for it. Yes, obviously? Preferably the people with more than one megayacht?
    - lixtra 7y ago
      So if you distribute 1000 USD/month to 300 Mio Americans, do you mind to explain where you want to take the money from? According to [1] the top 3% (>250k USD household income per year) earn in total per month 127,300,000,000 = 3,800,000 * 402,000 / 12 USD vs 300,000,000,000 = 300,000,000 * 1,000 USD needed to fund your ubi. Maybe it's not enough to take from people with more than one megayacht? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States#Distribution_of_household_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United...
      - pjc50 7y ago
        While I was being slightly flippant in that, I note that your example of $300Bn as being a completely unreasonable, unachievable number for UBI is less than half the US military budget, and in fact represents about the increase from the pre-9/11 post-cold-war low point. Also that most UBI proposals involve fiddling with the tax bands so that above-average earners see much less or no net increase. "Do you want $1000 each for twenty years or a war for twenty years" was of course a question that was never on the table in 2002.
        7y ago

by lixtra 7y ago

brockmuellers 7y ago

One could instead think of social programs, such as UBI, as insurance. People gladly pay >1% of income for insurance. I believe that nearly everyone has the potential to end up in the financial dumps (no one is above drug addiction, serious health problems, mental disorders, lawsuits etc). If a worker ends up there, they'll be glad to have the "insurance coverage" of UBI.

lixtra 7y ago
If that is so, why don’t you form an ubi society, whose members pay an ubi for everyone that wants to join (and net pay). According to you it won’t be difficult to find people that are glad to join. To the downvoters of my initial comment: I don’t want people to die on the street. But I doubt ubi is an adequate cure either.
- CryptoBanker 7y ago
  When the people vote for UBI one day you'll have your society...
  - nybble41 7y ago
    ...whether you want it or not. Which misses the entire point of it being a society with voluntary membership.

pjc50 7y ago

Conversely, if we take 1% of a return on a capital asset, the owner spent zero hours labor for that, so they've lost none of their life ...

lixtra 7y ago
Except someone spend labor to amass that capital. If I considered saving no longer worthwhile, I wouldn’t consume more. I would work less and enjoy more free time. Of course this leads to over proportional less taxes for the state or ubi. I don’t see why you couldn’t try ubi in small scale by the fans. The most obvious reason why it wouldn’t work on small scale and only on state or global level is because supporters want someone else to pay for it.
- pjc50 7y ago
  > is because supporters want someone else to pay for it. Yes, obviously? Preferably the people with more than one megayacht?
  - lixtra 7y ago
    So if you distribute 1000 USD/month to 300 Mio Americans, do you mind to explain where you want to take the money from? According to [1] the top 3% (>250k USD household income per year) earn in total per month 127,300,000,000 = 3,800,000 * 402,000 / 12 USD vs 300,000,000,000 = 300,000,000 * 1,000 USD needed to fund your ubi. Maybe it's not enough to take from people with more than one megayacht? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States#Distribution_of_household_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United...
    - pjc50 7y ago
      While I was being slightly flippant in that, I note that your example of $300Bn as being a completely unreasonable, unachievable number for UBI is less than half the US military budget, and in fact represents about the increase from the pre-9/11 post-cold-war low point. Also that most UBI proposals involve fiddling with the tax bands so that above-average earners see much less or no net increase. "Do you want $1000 each for twenty years or a war for twenty years" was of course a question that was never on the table in 2002.
      - 7y ago