7 ms·

It was this essay, along with a choice quote from Epictetus, that induced me to finally leave my day job to go back to University to study CS. I graduated a mon

It was this essay, along with a choice quote from Epictetus, that induced me to finally leave my day job to go back to University to study CS. I graduated a month ago and began my first full-time SWE position last Monday. I spent my twenties on auto-pilot, allowing external circumstances to effectively decide my life for me. Seneca and the Stoics reminded me of the immense agency I still possessed, despite the obscenity that was the recession and the cost of American Higher Education. I still had some say over my life, or at least over my choices, and if I didn't exercise my agency, life would slip through my fingers and hurtle to me a deathbed filled with regret and disappointment. The quote from Epictetus: "How long are you going to wait before you demand the best for yourself and in no instance bypass the discriminations of reason? You have been given the principles that you ought to endorse, and you have endorsed them. What kind of teacher, then, are you still waiting for in order to refer your self-improvement to him? You are no longer a boy but a full-grown man. If you are careless and lazy now and keep putting things off and always deferring the day after which you will attend to yourself, you will not notice that you are making no progress but you will live and die as someone quite ordinary. From now on, then, resolve to live as a grown-up who is making progress, and make whatever you think best a law that you never set aside. And whenever you encounter anything that is difficult or pleasurable or highly or lowly regarded, remember that the contest is now, you are at the Olympic games, you cannot wait any longer, and that your progress is wrecked or preserved by a single day and a single event. This is how Socrates fulfilled himself by attending to nothing except reason in everything he encountered. And you, although you are not yet Socrates, should live as someone who at least wants to be Socrates."

natmaka 7y ago
Character is destiny. The content of your character is your choice. Day by day, what you choose, what you think and what you do is who you become. ― Heraclitus
- lihaciudaniel 7y ago
  Everything is change, nothing is forever -- Heraclitus
DenisM 7y ago
Easier said than done tho. How does one overcome the comfort of inertia? How did you? Just by reading Seneca, or was there more to it?
- chillwaves 7y ago
  Truly feel some people are born with more resilience but I also think it can be trained, from an earlier age the better. If you have grown up giving in to discomfort/pleasure, then you are conditioned to accept the same. It's harder now, but not impossible.
- graeme 7y ago
  By making choices day by day. As the other commentor posting quoting Heraclitus, they are what make us: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22217440 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22217440 If a big choice is required, then first do a search of possible benefits, and vulnerabilities. Of what you would do if things went wrong, what the worst case scenarios are, and how to deal with them. I made such an analysis when considering leaving graduate school to start a business, and it helped immensely in clarifying things. You do ask a good question, as there are two separate questions in the quote from Epictetus: resolving upon a thing, and taking action to conform to it. It seems OP had already resolved, they just needed to make the jump. The resolution stage has somewhat different demands. For some, they may find that some factors preclude such a big jump. For instance, obligations to support a family, health issues, major consequences to failure and lack of a safety net, etc. If so, then the second part of the question doesn’t apply, as wishing for a different circumstance is merely a dream, not a resolution. But, if your trouble is merely comfort and inertia, then slap your face with cold water and wake up. You only have one life. It is seeping away even as you read this comment. If you want to do something else and you are not doing it, then comfort is your enemy. It lulls you into sticking with what is merely tolerable. But you are dying. Focus on this, focus on the pain of that realization. It is this pain, this discomfort, that can let you resolve upon a change, whatever that may be in your circumstances. Once you have resolved, then all becomes clearer. Save every penny you can. Discard comfort and focus on necessity, for the transition will be worse than both the comfortable present and the expected better future. Every bit of slack you can generate helps immeasurably. Ask if you truly, truly want the change. Soul searching on your own with pen and paper is the best method I know, along with long walks. If you do form this resolve, and truly decide you want it, hewing to this idea is what lets you break out of inertia.
agumonkey 7y ago
I found it shocking to realize that thousand years old realizations are still worth more than the vast majority of ideas invented since (regarding human existence that is). Gives a slight taint to the meaning of the word 'progress'.
- dwrodri 7y ago
  The progress we have made towards changing the conditions humans live in has evolved immensely, but the progress we have made towards a different human condition from our ancestors is almost nonexistent.
  - agumonkey 7y ago
    yes agreed, materially we're off the pit I'd argue though, that a good life is a balance between human condition and material needs. A kind of optimized frugality.
- taberiand 7y ago
  That's the thing about philosophy - it doesn't take any special tools or rely on modern technology to study, just intellect. People today aren't any more or less sophisticated than the people of thousands of years ago, and them no more than the people thousands of years before them. Philosophy transcends time and space, and the golden age of Greek and Roman philosophy is full of extremely insightful and applicable knowledge to our modern lives.
  - stallmanite 7y ago
    So philosophy is similar to software as a field in that you don’t need a bunch of equipment to get going? Maybe it’s trivial but I had never considered that fact or it’s implications before.
    - refset 7y ago
      My favourite computer-related quote: "programming is applied philosophy" (origin unknown, sorry!)
oldputput 7y ago
I don't think Socrates would be seeking a 'full-time SWE position' were he alive today.
- IggleSniggle 7y ago
  I think you're right, although I think he would feel the allure of software and probably write software. He faulted writing with the decline of memory and resulting in the pretense of understanding vs True understanding.
- lordleft 7y ago
  We can be a Socrates anywhere. We don't have to literally be on trial for "corrupting the youth" to exercise reason and pursue virtue. We can strive to live well on even quotidian place like the workplace or our local communities. In fact that's where much of the drama of the philosophical life unfolds. I wasn't saying that Stoicism pointed me in the direction of a lucrative career but that it encouraged me to ask myself how I can lead a better life for others, and that involved finding work that I loved and that could provide for my family. So no, I don't think Socrates would become a SWE for the typical reasons why people jump into this industry. But there is nothing in his thought that suggests to me that he would above doing meaningful, intellectually enriching work that would enable to help to contribute to his community and to support those he loved.
- oklol123 7y ago
  Would be probably a physicist, doctor or lawyer
- watwut 7y ago
  He would be in politics advocating against democracy and for the next war.
throwaway10298 7y ago
When, but now?
kashyapc 7y ago
People like to talk about and associate with Marcus Aurelius, because he was a Roman emperor, and thus books like these will sell: "How to think like a Roman Emperor". How about "How to think like a crippled Greek slave who was freed"? Doesn't sound that impressive. That is Epictetus, who has left an indelible mark on Marcus Aurelius, who copiously rephrases him. Having read a few translations of both, Aurelius and Epictetus, I firmly suggest to start with Epictetus, because of his structured approach, pungent and forceful prose, use of hyperbole, heavy irony, sarcasm, humor and other devices. For those intersted in Epictetus, based on my deep-dive into his work, here is my long-term suggested reading for the next two years (in that order): • Discourses, Fragments and Handbook (translation by Robin Hard, intro by Christopher Gill; Oxford University Press). • Encheiridion, and Selections from Discourses, by A.A. Long. This is a short book; the value addition here is the introduction, and the outstanding glossary. (NB: there is no escaping full Discourses of Epictetus.) • The Inner Citadel, by Pierre Hadot. This is a fantastic dissection of Marcus Aurelius' work; Hadot studied him for 25 years. It also contains unparalleled summary of Epictetus, and many quotes of Seneca. • Epictetus: A Stoic and Socratic Guide, by A.A. Long. Important Note: to get maximum value out of this, you must have already read at least one translation of Epictetus' full Discourses! This book orients the reader to Epictetus with an extremely valuable context: how not to misinterpret his unqualified faith in "divine providence" (which can grate on our "modern ears"); the influence of Plato and the "Socratic elunchus" (colloquially known as "Socratic Method"); deep insights into Epictetus' own inimitable style; and a rich bibliography. A.A. Long is a star. • If you've come this far, you must also read the 1927 edition of Epictetus translation, the two-book Loeb edition of Discourses; by W.A. Oldfather.

natmaka 7y ago

Character is destiny. The content of your character is your choice. Day by day, what you choose, what you think and what you do is who you become. ― Heraclitus

lihaciudaniel 7y ago
Everything is change, nothing is forever -- Heraclitus

DenisM 7y ago

Easier said than done tho. How does one overcome the comfort of inertia? How did you? Just by reading Seneca, or was there more to it?

chillwaves 7y ago
Truly feel some people are born with more resilience but I also think it can be trained, from an earlier age the better. If you have grown up giving in to discomfort/pleasure, then you are conditioned to accept the same. It's harder now, but not impossible.
graeme 7y ago
By making choices day by day. As the other commentor posting quoting Heraclitus, they are what make us: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22217440 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22217440 If a big choice is required, then first do a search of possible benefits, and vulnerabilities. Of what you would do if things went wrong, what the worst case scenarios are, and how to deal with them. I made such an analysis when considering leaving graduate school to start a business, and it helped immensely in clarifying things. You do ask a good question, as there are two separate questions in the quote from Epictetus: resolving upon a thing, and taking action to conform to it. It seems OP had already resolved, they just needed to make the jump. The resolution stage has somewhat different demands. For some, they may find that some factors preclude such a big jump. For instance, obligations to support a family, health issues, major consequences to failure and lack of a safety net, etc. If so, then the second part of the question doesn’t apply, as wishing for a different circumstance is merely a dream, not a resolution. But, if your trouble is merely comfort and inertia, then slap your face with cold water and wake up. You only have one life. It is seeping away even as you read this comment. If you want to do something else and you are not doing it, then comfort is your enemy. It lulls you into sticking with what is merely tolerable. But you are dying. Focus on this, focus on the pain of that realization. It is this pain, this discomfort, that can let you resolve upon a change, whatever that may be in your circumstances. Once you have resolved, then all becomes clearer. Save every penny you can. Discard comfort and focus on necessity, for the transition will be worse than both the comfortable present and the expected better future. Every bit of slack you can generate helps immeasurably. Ask if you truly, truly want the change. Soul searching on your own with pen and paper is the best method I know, along with long walks. If you do form this resolve, and truly decide you want it, hewing to this idea is what lets you break out of inertia.

agumonkey 7y ago

I found it shocking to realize that thousand years old realizations are still worth more than the vast majority of ideas invented since (regarding human existence that is). Gives a slight taint to the meaning of the word 'progress'.

dwrodri 7y ago
The progress we have made towards changing the conditions humans live in has evolved immensely, but the progress we have made towards a different human condition from our ancestors is almost nonexistent.
- agumonkey 7y ago
  yes agreed, materially we're off the pit I'd argue though, that a good life is a balance between human condition and material needs. A kind of optimized frugality.
taberiand 7y ago
That's the thing about philosophy - it doesn't take any special tools or rely on modern technology to study, just intellect. People today aren't any more or less sophisticated than the people of thousands of years ago, and them no more than the people thousands of years before them. Philosophy transcends time and space, and the golden age of Greek and Roman philosophy is full of extremely insightful and applicable knowledge to our modern lives.
- stallmanite 7y ago
  So philosophy is similar to software as a field in that you don’t need a bunch of equipment to get going? Maybe it’s trivial but I had never considered that fact or it’s implications before.
  - refset 7y ago
    My favourite computer-related quote: "programming is applied philosophy" (origin unknown, sorry!)

oldputput 7y ago

I don't think Socrates would be seeking a 'full-time SWE position' were he alive today.

IggleSniggle 7y ago
I think you're right, although I think he would feel the allure of software and probably write software. He faulted writing with the decline of memory and resulting in the pretense of understanding vs True understanding.
lordleft 7y ago
We can be a Socrates anywhere. We don't have to literally be on trial for "corrupting the youth" to exercise reason and pursue virtue. We can strive to live well on even quotidian place like the workplace or our local communities. In fact that's where much of the drama of the philosophical life unfolds. I wasn't saying that Stoicism pointed me in the direction of a lucrative career but that it encouraged me to ask myself how I can lead a better life for others, and that involved finding work that I loved and that could provide for my family. So no, I don't think Socrates would become a SWE for the typical reasons why people jump into this industry. But there is nothing in his thought that suggests to me that he would above doing meaningful, intellectually enriching work that would enable to help to contribute to his community and to support those he loved.
oklol123 7y ago
Would be probably a physicist, doctor or lawyer
watwut 7y ago
He would be in politics advocating against democracy and for the next war.

throwaway10298 7y ago

When, but now?

kashyapc 7y ago

People like to talk about and associate with Marcus Aurelius, because he was a Roman emperor, and thus books like these will sell: "How to think like a Roman Emperor". How about "How to think like a crippled Greek slave who was freed"? Doesn't sound that impressive. That is Epictetus, who has left an indelible mark on Marcus Aurelius, who copiously rephrases him. Having read a few translations of both, Aurelius and Epictetus, I firmly suggest to start with Epictetus, because of his structured approach, pungent and forceful prose, use of hyperbole, heavy irony, sarcasm, humor and other devices. For those intersted in Epictetus, based on my deep-dive into his work, here is my long-term suggested reading for the next two years (in that order): • Discourses, Fragments and Handbook (translation by Robin Hard, intro by Christopher Gill; Oxford University Press). • Encheiridion, and Selections from Discourses, by A.A. Long. This is a short book; the value addition here is the introduction, and the outstanding glossary. (NB: there is no escaping full Discourses of Epictetus.) • The Inner Citadel, by Pierre Hadot. This is a fantastic dissection of Marcus Aurelius' work; Hadot studied him for 25 years. It also contains unparalleled summary of Epictetus, and many quotes of Seneca. • Epictetus: A Stoic and Socratic Guide, by A.A. Long. Important Note: to get maximum value out of this, you must have already read at least one translation of Epictetus' full Discourses! This book orients the reader to Epictetus with an extremely valuable context: how not to misinterpret his unqualified faith in "divine providence" (which can grate on our "modern ears"); the influence of Plato and the "Socratic elunchus" (colloquially known as "Socratic Method"); deep insights into Epictetus' own inimitable style; and a rich bibliography. A.A. Long is a star. • If you've come this far, you must also read the 1927 edition of Epictetus translation, the two-book Loeb edition of Discourses; by W.A. Oldfather.