5 ms·

I'm going to break slightly with the authors opinion here and say we do solve every problem with "be more like us" but that doesn't always mean college. Other s

I'm going to break slightly with the authors opinion here and say we do solve every problem with "be more like us" but that doesn't always mean college. Other solutions involve "why don't you just move", better mass transit / fewer cars, some form of retraining (not college per se) etc. There's a whole basket of diverging "elite" values such that even if they stopped telling people to go to college tomorrow they would still be despised by the working class. Maybe I am being one of those dastardly, snobbish, grating coastal elites. But if you don't like me and my solutions, what else is there? There is literally nothing I could suggest to help the lower class which can't be construed as "just be more like me".

tacitusarc 7y ago
Part of the problem is the suggestion that they need help in the first place. So what Joe the garbage truck driver didn't go to college? So what he has a small house in a kinda shitty neighborhood? Maybe he's doing the best he can and maybe he actually has a pretty happy life. The working class doesn't need pity and suggestions to move or go get a degree. Here's something novel: why are the roads in nice neighborhoods always better repaired than roads in poor neighborhoods? Instead of telling the working class to move or get college degrees, maybe advocate for equality in road repair.
- hinkley 7y ago
  I always wonder how the mental model works for some people. They espouse a way to live that they think everyone should do, but that way includes not making your own food, hauling your own trash, or (at least for many of them) building your own things. If they got their way, they’d have to do all the stuff they look down on other people for being competent at. But I don’t think they want them to do these things, they just want a way to either prop themselves up, or keep other people down.
  - jacquesm 7y ago
    Besides that, Joe the garbage truck driver may be a better dad than the people criticizing him.
    - watwut 7y ago
      He may be great dad theoretically, but if his job requires him to drive that truck for 12 hours a day and he is constantly in stress from lack of money or local crime and cant afford doctor to help him with back pain he got from the job, his ability to be that great dad is limited. Joe the garbage truck driver has limits just like anybody else. The family growing up in "shitty neighborhood" likely means that kids are growing up seeing a lot of alcoholism or drug taking and so on and in them being in higher risk to internalizing that regardless of what parents do. There are many people willing to do these jobs and not enough of these jobs - meaning people get overworked, mistreated and not much paid. There is this romantic idea of idyllic work-class families happy driving trucks that seem to ignore economic and physical realities of their situation.
      - gumby 7y ago
        This was no such an issue when unions were stronger. The unions themselves grew fat and some of them corrupt, but cleaning that up discarded the baby along with the dirty bath water.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- gttalbot 7y ago
  The situation at that level is far more dire. A non-union garbage truck driver doesn't have a house. Can't afford a family. No health insurance. No retirement plan or pension. And if you go to any large company, you'll find that it's the same there unless you're in the upper "employee" caste--you're working for a contractor company, and have the same bad deal. For all the discussion of diversity, any pathway out is pretty much closed. Even if you're in a historically disadvantaged group, the large company doesn't want to set a precedent that would establish the contractor group as employees. So the large company will block training and advancement, extracurricular networking opportunities, etc. And historically disadvantaged minorities will be overrepresented in the contractor group because of both economic and educational disadvantage. And to throw salt on it, arbitration agreements that you are forced to sign to work will preclude you using a class action suit to try to fix it, like Microsoft's testing group did in the 1990s. (Thank you Roberts court.)
  - tacitusarc 7y ago
    That's a blanket statement that just doesn't hold true. Reality is much more mixed. Here: https://www.indeed.com/cmp/Waste-Management-1/reviews?fcountry=ALL&fjobtitle=Truck+Driver https://www.indeed.com/cmp/Waste-Management-1/reviews?fcount...
  - thu2111 7y ago
    Garbage truck drivers are actually surprisingly well paid, if I recall correctly, as the job is quite dangerous and dirty so not many people want to do it.
- true_religion 7y ago
  Around here road repair is allocated via property taxes. Pay more taxes because you live on a nicer street, and you will see more road repair. This gets compounded because nicer streets also lobby for school bus stops central to them, which leads to even more dollars being spent there. Last of all, if too little is being done on the roads then the neighbors on a nice street pool their money and privately fix the road themselves.
pharke 7y ago
The problem isn't the choice of education or career (or job) that people wind up in. The wage gap between labourers and anyone capable of owning capital is so enormous that people on either side of it can rarely grasp its full measure. The wealthy still think of the poor as being essentially too lazy or stupid to better themselves since surely with a little frugality, hard work, education, and planning they could improve their position. They don't realize that even a well educated, disciplined and spartan individual can still barely improve their standing if they don't carry with them the trappings of the modern elite. Much of which depends on who you know, where you live, and the shibboleths you can recite. "Go to college" or "just move" is very much the modern "let them eat cake" it is a complete and utter failure to understand the dire position that the Other is in. Likewise, the problem is not one of convenience, having no bread and so resorting to cake, but of necessity of life, working without receiving a wage that one can live on. Teddy Roosevelt's New Nationalism speech is alluded to in the article but I feel like its spirit is not reflected in the writing. I would recommend reading the speech itself rather than the article about the speech that is linked to. The warnings and predictions it contains are very applicable to the times we are living through. https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/blog/2011/12/06/archives-president-teddy-roosevelts-new-nationalism-speech https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/blog/2011/12/06/archive...
ur-whale 7y ago
You seem to assume that higher education yields left-leaning people. This strikes me as a perfect example of [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proximity_principle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proximity_principle > Maybe I am being one of those dastardly, snobbish, grating coastal elites. You absolutely are. The use of the words "lower class" in your post is a perfect proof of that.
- Can_Not 7y ago
  There seems to be nothing in the comment about left leaning people being smarter, perhaps a freudian slip on your part.
treis 7y ago
>solve every problem with "be more like us" The overriding divide in today's politics is between those that benefit from immigration and outsourcing and those that are harmed by it. Those that benefit say "be more like us" so that you too can benefit. Those that are harmed say change the system so that we are not harmed.
repsilat 7y ago
> ...if you don't like me and my solutions, what else is there? I'd like to broaden this position a bit before laying out the alternative. I think the philosophy here (which I largely share) is that "if what you're doing isn't working, try something else". Get educated, sure, but also think about moving for opportunities. See what's working for other people, and make it work for you. If your town's coal mine is shutting down, don't tell your kid to be a coal miner -- change something. Funnily enough, this is an old-fashioned value on both the left and the right, even though it doesn't sound "conservative". It stresses drive and personal responsibility. It's a founding American value -- come to America, "Go West", all that. The policies to support it encourage a strong economy, education, transport, and a limited safety net, so when you fall down you can get back up again. But "personal responsibility" sounds a bit like "poor people choose to be poor". And so the more recent philosophy: If there isn't a future for coal miners, don't tell people to do something else -- that's insulting, they are coal miners. You're not going to win any votes telling people their identity is wrong, and they should just try being something else. If that coal mine is shutting down, we should protect the industry. We should move some government jobs into town to support the local economy. We should support them. That's the message TFA is trying to get across. In America's new "identity-politics" mood, the poor are no longer "temporarily embarrassed millionaires", the less educated aren't just in need of more education. It's a populist philosophy that says to voters "We love you just they way you are, and we want to protect you and help you without judging you or changing you."
6510 7y ago
> "why don't you just move" Fair, question. 1) Just moving your stuff costs a lot of money but with some savings it can be accomplished. You end up spending half the value of the sofa to move it. Then you need curtains, wall paper, paint and carpet. That money just doesn't exist. 2) The comfort of their own home is much more important if you lack a sense of financial security. Trying to recreate this isn't guaranteed to work. 3) Poor people to a much greater extend depend on friends and relatives nearby as do they depend on you. Rebuilding the network takes decades if it happens at all. They are not just there to save you when things turn sour but they are the main activity. You don't go to the movies, a bar, a restaurant, London, Disney world or to Ibizza, you go visit a friend.
eli_gottlieb 7y ago
>Maybe I am being one of those dastardly, snobbish, grating coastal elites. But if you don't like me and my solutions, what else is there? There is literally nothing I could suggest to help the lower class which can't be construed as "just be more like me". I'd bet money you're not in a trade union.

tacitusarc 7y ago

Part of the problem is the suggestion that they need help in the first place. So what Joe the garbage truck driver didn't go to college? So what he has a small house in a kinda shitty neighborhood? Maybe he's doing the best he can and maybe he actually has a pretty happy life. The working class doesn't need pity and suggestions to move or go get a degree. Here's something novel: why are the roads in nice neighborhoods always better repaired than roads in poor neighborhoods? Instead of telling the working class to move or get college degrees, maybe advocate for equality in road repair.

hinkley 7y ago
I always wonder how the mental model works for some people. They espouse a way to live that they think everyone should do, but that way includes not making your own food, hauling your own trash, or (at least for many of them) building your own things. If they got their way, they’d have to do all the stuff they look down on other people for being competent at. But I don’t think they want them to do these things, they just want a way to either prop themselves up, or keep other people down.
- jacquesm 7y ago
  Besides that, Joe the garbage truck driver may be a better dad than the people criticizing him.
  - watwut 7y ago
    He may be great dad theoretically, but if his job requires him to drive that truck for 12 hours a day and he is constantly in stress from lack of money or local crime and cant afford doctor to help him with back pain he got from the job, his ability to be that great dad is limited. Joe the garbage truck driver has limits just like anybody else. The family growing up in "shitty neighborhood" likely means that kids are growing up seeing a lot of alcoholism or drug taking and so on and in them being in higher risk to internalizing that regardless of what parents do. There are many people willing to do these jobs and not enough of these jobs - meaning people get overworked, mistreated and not much paid. There is this romantic idea of idyllic work-class families happy driving trucks that seem to ignore economic and physical realities of their situation.
    - gumby 7y ago
      This was no such an issue when unions were stronger. The unions themselves grew fat and some of them corrupt, but cleaning that up discarded the baby along with the dirty bath water.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
gttalbot 7y ago
The situation at that level is far more dire. A non-union garbage truck driver doesn't have a house. Can't afford a family. No health insurance. No retirement plan or pension. And if you go to any large company, you'll find that it's the same there unless you're in the upper "employee" caste--you're working for a contractor company, and have the same bad deal. For all the discussion of diversity, any pathway out is pretty much closed. Even if you're in a historically disadvantaged group, the large company doesn't want to set a precedent that would establish the contractor group as employees. So the large company will block training and advancement, extracurricular networking opportunities, etc. And historically disadvantaged minorities will be overrepresented in the contractor group because of both economic and educational disadvantage. And to throw salt on it, arbitration agreements that you are forced to sign to work will preclude you using a class action suit to try to fix it, like Microsoft's testing group did in the 1990s. (Thank you Roberts court.)
- tacitusarc 7y ago
  That's a blanket statement that just doesn't hold true. Reality is much more mixed. Here: https://www.indeed.com/cmp/Waste-Management-1/reviews?fcountry=ALL&fjobtitle=Truck+Driver https://www.indeed.com/cmp/Waste-Management-1/reviews?fcount...
- thu2111 7y ago
  Garbage truck drivers are actually surprisingly well paid, if I recall correctly, as the job is quite dangerous and dirty so not many people want to do it.
true_religion 7y ago
Around here road repair is allocated via property taxes. Pay more taxes because you live on a nicer street, and you will see more road repair. This gets compounded because nicer streets also lobby for school bus stops central to them, which leads to even more dollars being spent there. Last of all, if too little is being done on the roads then the neighbors on a nice street pool their money and privately fix the road themselves.

pharke 7y ago

The problem isn't the choice of education or career (or job) that people wind up in. The wage gap between labourers and anyone capable of owning capital is so enormous that people on either side of it can rarely grasp its full measure. The wealthy still think of the poor as being essentially too lazy or stupid to better themselves since surely with a little frugality, hard work, education, and planning they could improve their position. They don't realize that even a well educated, disciplined and spartan individual can still barely improve their standing if they don't carry with them the trappings of the modern elite. Much of which depends on who you know, where you live, and the shibboleths you can recite. "Go to college" or "just move" is very much the modern "let them eat cake" it is a complete and utter failure to understand the dire position that the Other is in. Likewise, the problem is not one of convenience, having no bread and so resorting to cake, but of necessity of life, working without receiving a wage that one can live on. Teddy Roosevelt's New Nationalism speech is alluded to in the article but I feel like its spirit is not reflected in the writing. I would recommend reading the speech itself rather than the article about the speech that is linked to. The warnings and predictions it contains are very applicable to the times we are living through. https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/blog/2011/12/06/archives-president-teddy-roosevelts-new-nationalism-speech https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/blog/2011/12/06/archive...

ur-whale 7y ago

You seem to assume that higher education yields left-leaning people. This strikes me as a perfect example of [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proximity_principle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proximity_principle > Maybe I am being one of those dastardly, snobbish, grating coastal elites. You absolutely are. The use of the words "lower class" in your post is a perfect proof of that.

Can_Not 7y ago
There seems to be nothing in the comment about left leaning people being smarter, perhaps a freudian slip on your part.

treis 7y ago

>solve every problem with "be more like us" The overriding divide in today's politics is between those that benefit from immigration and outsourcing and those that are harmed by it. Those that benefit say "be more like us" so that you too can benefit. Those that are harmed say change the system so that we are not harmed.

repsilat 7y ago

> ...if you don't like me and my solutions, what else is there? I'd like to broaden this position a bit before laying out the alternative. I think the philosophy here (which I largely share) is that "if what you're doing isn't working, try something else". Get educated, sure, but also think about moving for opportunities. See what's working for other people, and make it work for you. If your town's coal mine is shutting down, don't tell your kid to be a coal miner -- change something. Funnily enough, this is an old-fashioned value on both the left and the right, even though it doesn't sound "conservative". It stresses drive and personal responsibility. It's a founding American value -- come to America, "Go West", all that. The policies to support it encourage a strong economy, education, transport, and a limited safety net, so when you fall down you can get back up again. But "personal responsibility" sounds a bit like "poor people choose to be poor". And so the more recent philosophy: If there isn't a future for coal miners, don't tell people to do something else -- that's insulting, they are coal miners. You're not going to win any votes telling people their identity is wrong, and they should just try being something else. If that coal mine is shutting down, we should protect the industry. We should move some government jobs into town to support the local economy. We should support them. That's the message TFA is trying to get across. In America's new "identity-politics" mood, the poor are no longer "temporarily embarrassed millionaires", the less educated aren't just in need of more education. It's a populist philosophy that says to voters "We love you just they way you are, and we want to protect you and help you without judging you or changing you."

6510 7y ago

> "why don't you just move" Fair, question. 1) Just moving your stuff costs a lot of money but with some savings it can be accomplished. You end up spending half the value of the sofa to move it. Then you need curtains, wall paper, paint and carpet. That money just doesn't exist. 2) The comfort of their own home is much more important if you lack a sense of financial security. Trying to recreate this isn't guaranteed to work. 3) Poor people to a much greater extend depend on friends and relatives nearby as do they depend on you. Rebuilding the network takes decades if it happens at all. They are not just there to save you when things turn sour but they are the main activity. You don't go to the movies, a bar, a restaurant, London, Disney world or to Ibizza, you go visit a friend.

eli_gottlieb 7y ago

>Maybe I am being one of those dastardly, snobbish, grating coastal elites. But if you don't like me and my solutions, what else is there? There is literally nothing I could suggest to help the lower class which can't be construed as "just be more like me". I'd bet money you're not in a trade union.