5 ms·

Wow, big move by Apple. While on the one hand I'm glad for there to be this subscription service the real hand grenade they tossed out was this (emphasis added)

by cletus 16y ago

Wow, big move by Apple. While on the one hand I'm glad for there to be this subscription service the real hand grenade they tossed out was this (emphasis added): > Apple does require that if a publisher chooses to sell a digital subscription separately outside of the app, that same subscription offer must be made available, at the same price or less Can you see Amazon handing over 30% of Kindle sales to Apple? I can't. Affiliate commissions are typically what? 4-10%? Unfortunately Apple doesn't have a lot of room to move here either as having a retail channel for iTunes vouchers (which is incredibly important for them) means maintaining a margin of at least 20% I would guess. All I know is that if I lose my Kindle app on my iPad that's going to be a huge problem.

greyman 16y ago
I am a bit confused - is kindle ebook considered a subscription?
- evilduck 16y ago
  Books not necessarily, but the Kindle platform does offer subscription services for Magazines, Newspapers, blogs, etc. Under Apple's current wording, it appears that Amazon would be required to add an in-app option to subscribe to those offerings and would be required to fork over 30% of all subscription revenue if a user chose to use the Kindle app to subscribe instead of using a different Kindle platform option.
  - davidcann 16y ago
    Why do people care so much about Amazon? Amazon is a middleman, so why not cut them out? Magazines, Newspapers, and Blogs can go directly through Apple and keep their same 70% cut.
    - evilduck 16y ago
      You're proposing publishers cut out Amazon as a middleman and replace them with Apple, another middleman. I don't know Amazon's cut, but it may not be worth the effort to switch if there's no financial gain. If content, quality and prices are equal between the AppStore subscription and the Kindle store versions, I have no incentive to buy from the AppStore when it's less feature rich than a Kindle version which can seamlessly sync and move between PC, Android and iOS. AppStore purchases are stuck on iOS devices, and the Kindle's display is the preferable reading screen for many people. To be fair, it's not limited to Amazon either, B&N and the Nook are in the same situation.
      - nooneelse 16y ago
        But why should content sellers need to have such a middle man at all with the current technology? If there were a subscription-based-content reader installed on my laptop, I could just pay the content provider with a credit card and Dell would not be getting a cut.
        evilduck 16y ago
        Abstracted to middlemen in general, since most of it applies: Convenience, product visibility, uniformity of services, buying power, plus they assume certain risks on my behalf (dealing with shady/inexperienced suppliers, maintaining distribution channels, chasing refunds, notifying me of recalls etc). It's the same reason I go to a grocery store instead of making trips to a dozen or more local farms. In the digital arena, product suggestions are becoming important too. Amazon has a fairly accurate profile of what I like, and can show me stuff I might like but would never discover on my own. Independent niche suppliers can't build that profile and they usually don't want me checking out their competitors. There's also the consumer willingness to trade product rights for cost savings. O'Reilly sells non-DRMed PDFs of their books on their own site, or I can buy a DRMed copy from Amazon for half price. For a book that'll might be antiquated in 3 years, that savings starts looking pretty good. "Current technology" is no magic bullet either. The cost barrier of the infrastructure is lower, but it still requires talent a supplier may not specialize in to run it. Selling your own product poorly is probably worse for you than paying someone else to do it well.
    - c2 16y ago
      That's replacing one middleman (Amazon) with another (Apple). Also Amazon typically has much better selection then Apple, not to mention all the content you already purchased on the Kindle store and were planning to read with your iPad becomes inaccessible, if Apple does end up pulling the Kindle app.
      - davidcann 16y ago
        Yes, exactly: replacing Amazon with Apple. Why should publishers and customers have two middlemen? I highly doubt that Apple will ever pull a Kindle-viewer app, so your second concern is likely a non-issue.
        potatolicious 16y ago
        > "Why should publishers and customers have two middlemen?" That's the point, there aren't 2 middlemen. There is only one: Amazon. Apple wants to take Amazon's place by asserting their privilege over the platform.
        davidcann 16y ago
        Yea, so what's wrong with Apple edging out Amazon? Why doesn't Amazon allow iBooks to be purchased on the Kindle? They're in direct competition. I use and love Amazon services, but I have a hard time feeling bad for them in this matter.
        nooneelse 16y ago
        I believe the last time I saw this retort on HN, someone pointed to some "how to develop for the kindle" information that Apple is free to use if they choose. Until they do so and Amazon rejects their work, the retort does not hold up.
- maguay 16y ago
  The way I read it, this would only concern Amazon with the Kindle app if it had newspaper/magazine subscriptions in Kindle for iOS. Currently it doesn't, so I don't think it's a problem. That said, IANAL...
  - evilduck 16y ago
    Also not a lawyer, but: " if a publisher is making a subscription offer outside of the app, the same (or better) offer be made inside the app" That reads to me like they will be required to offer their subscription services in-app.
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
      - evilduck 16y ago
        I hope your interpretation is the right one, but it's still problematic in that Amazon can't offer their subscriptions in-app without price matching instead of (cost + 30%). I don't know the exact breakdown, but I'm pretty sure the iPad is not the primary Kindle reading device. Adding a useful feature like in-app subscription purchases now has a huge negative incentive for Amazon.
    - xbryanx 16y ago
      I don't think this means that you are required to build subscription functionality into your app if your app's company offers any sort of subscriptions. So if the Kindle app on iOS doesn't support subscriptions yet, then they aren't compelled to do so, right?
jaskerr 16y ago
It's safe to say that an entity/group/company in control of a market will likely act to prevent circumvention of the market. Amazon does this - any Amazon Marketplace seller who sells products independently of the Marketplace must offer the goods on Amazon for the same price or less -- "General Pricing Rule" - http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=1161240 http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=1... (I believe Kindle purchases aren't subscriptions, so let's leave that aside for now.) (I'm also leaving aside whether this behavior is ethical, good, whathaveyou.) The problem is Apple's insistence on a 30% commission. I think the backlash against this will be substantial.
- gte910h 16y ago
  Indeed. The issue is not the "best price" guarantee, which is common in business. It is the "holy crap that's a huge commission" issue.
jonny_eh 16y ago
You can't lose an app you've already downloaded. Well, maybe Apple could theoretically remotely kill it, but they've never done that for the 100s of apps they've pulled from the store.
- Bud 16y ago
  Pretty easy for Apple to kill it in relatively short order by making it partially or entirely incompatible with a new iOS version, though.

by cletus 16y ago

greyman 16y ago

I am a bit confused - is kindle ebook considered a subscription?

evilduck 16y ago
Books not necessarily, but the Kindle platform does offer subscription services for Magazines, Newspapers, blogs, etc. Under Apple's current wording, it appears that Amazon would be required to add an in-app option to subscribe to those offerings and would be required to fork over 30% of all subscription revenue if a user chose to use the Kindle app to subscribe instead of using a different Kindle platform option.
- davidcann 16y ago
  Why do people care so much about Amazon? Amazon is a middleman, so why not cut them out? Magazines, Newspapers, and Blogs can go directly through Apple and keep their same 70% cut.
  - evilduck 16y ago
    You're proposing publishers cut out Amazon as a middleman and replace them with Apple, another middleman. I don't know Amazon's cut, but it may not be worth the effort to switch if there's no financial gain. If content, quality and prices are equal between the AppStore subscription and the Kindle store versions, I have no incentive to buy from the AppStore when it's less feature rich than a Kindle version which can seamlessly sync and move between PC, Android and iOS. AppStore purchases are stuck on iOS devices, and the Kindle's display is the preferable reading screen for many people. To be fair, it's not limited to Amazon either, B&N and the Nook are in the same situation.
    - nooneelse 16y ago
      But why should content sellers need to have such a middle man at all with the current technology? If there were a subscription-based-content reader installed on my laptop, I could just pay the content provider with a credit card and Dell would not be getting a cut.
      - evilduck 16y ago
        Abstracted to middlemen in general, since most of it applies: Convenience, product visibility, uniformity of services, buying power, plus they assume certain risks on my behalf (dealing with shady/inexperienced suppliers, maintaining distribution channels, chasing refunds, notifying me of recalls etc). It's the same reason I go to a grocery store instead of making trips to a dozen or more local farms. In the digital arena, product suggestions are becoming important too. Amazon has a fairly accurate profile of what I like, and can show me stuff I might like but would never discover on my own. Independent niche suppliers can't build that profile and they usually don't want me checking out their competitors. There's also the consumer willingness to trade product rights for cost savings. O'Reilly sells non-DRMed PDFs of their books on their own site, or I can buy a DRMed copy from Amazon for half price. For a book that'll might be antiquated in 3 years, that savings starts looking pretty good. "Current technology" is no magic bullet either. The cost barrier of the infrastructure is lower, but it still requires talent a supplier may not specialize in to run it. Selling your own product poorly is probably worse for you than paying someone else to do it well.
  - c2 16y ago
    That's replacing one middleman (Amazon) with another (Apple). Also Amazon typically has much better selection then Apple, not to mention all the content you already purchased on the Kindle store and were planning to read with your iPad becomes inaccessible, if Apple does end up pulling the Kindle app.
    - davidcann 16y ago
      Yes, exactly: replacing Amazon with Apple. Why should publishers and customers have two middlemen? I highly doubt that Apple will ever pull a Kindle-viewer app, so your second concern is likely a non-issue.
      - potatolicious 16y ago
        > "Why should publishers and customers have two middlemen?" That's the point, there aren't 2 middlemen. There is only one: Amazon. Apple wants to take Amazon's place by asserting their privilege over the platform.
        davidcann 16y ago
        Yea, so what's wrong with Apple edging out Amazon? Why doesn't Amazon allow iBooks to be purchased on the Kindle? They're in direct competition. I use and love Amazon services, but I have a hard time feeling bad for them in this matter.
        nooneelse 16y ago
        I believe the last time I saw this retort on HN, someone pointed to some "how to develop for the kindle" information that Apple is free to use if they choose. Until they do so and Amazon rejects their work, the retort does not hold up.
maguay 16y ago
The way I read it, this would only concern Amazon with the Kindle app if it had newspaper/magazine subscriptions in Kindle for iOS. Currently it doesn't, so I don't think it's a problem. That said, IANAL...
- evilduck 16y ago
  Also not a lawyer, but: " if a publisher is making a subscription offer outside of the app, the same (or better) offer be made inside the app" That reads to me like they will be required to offer their subscription services in-app.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
    - evilduck 16y ago
      I hope your interpretation is the right one, but it's still problematic in that Amazon can't offer their subscriptions in-app without price matching instead of (cost + 30%). I don't know the exact breakdown, but I'm pretty sure the iPad is not the primary Kindle reading device. Adding a useful feature like in-app subscription purchases now has a huge negative incentive for Amazon.
  - xbryanx 16y ago
    I don't think this means that you are required to build subscription functionality into your app if your app's company offers any sort of subscriptions. So if the Kindle app on iOS doesn't support subscriptions yet, then they aren't compelled to do so, right?

jaskerr 16y ago

It's safe to say that an entity/group/company in control of a market will likely act to prevent circumvention of the market. Amazon does this - any Amazon Marketplace seller who sells products independently of the Marketplace must offer the goods on Amazon for the same price or less -- "General Pricing Rule" - http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=1161240 http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=1... (I believe Kindle purchases aren't subscriptions, so let's leave that aside for now.) (I'm also leaving aside whether this behavior is ethical, good, whathaveyou.) The problem is Apple's insistence on a 30% commission. I think the backlash against this will be substantial.

gte910h 16y ago
Indeed. The issue is not the "best price" guarantee, which is common in business. It is the "holy crap that's a huge commission" issue.

jonny_eh 16y ago

You can't lose an app you've already downloaded. Well, maybe Apple could theoretically remotely kill it, but they've never done that for the 100s of apps they've pulled from the store.

Bud 16y ago
Pretty easy for Apple to kill it in relatively short order by making it partially or entirely incompatible with a new iOS version, though.