5 ms·

Social Credit Systems, coming soon to a democracy near you

59 points by bidart 7y ago

sarcasmatwork 7y ago
Companies already scan social media. No surprise someone built a company around it. Too bad it does not root out toxic or incompetent management.
rukittenme 7y ago
I would criticize this product but I don't want to lose future employment opportunities.
- speedgoose 7y ago
  You want to work for companies that use this service?
  - rukittenme 7y ago
    Someday we might not have a choice.
withinboredom 7y ago
I'm curious about the legality of it. How do we know it won't discriminate illegally? Or how does an employee dispute the information?
- Mountain_Skies 7y ago
  The applicant likely will never know why they were rejected. How long would it take for someone to realize they could assassinate the character of a rival or someone they simply didn't like by posting with a fake account in places the AI is likely the source input? The target might never know that the false posts exists while being silently passed over.
endergen 7y ago
Funny how just using the culturally appropriate term “toxic workplace behavior” and all of sudden it doesn’t sound so bad. Who wouldn’t want that.
- lykr0n 7y ago
  The workplace extends into personal life now. People tweet shit publicly, and they publicly associate themselves with a company via Linkedin. So if this person says the wrong thing, people will harass them and the company they work for. It's the sound business choice to see which employees are saying online and screen for people who could say the wrong thing and cause PR issues for the company.
  - ohmaigad 7y ago
    The question is - does the "bad PR" really matter? Is there actual data/research proving that it in fact has an impact on the business profits? I doubt that people won't go and watch the latest Guardians of Galaxy just because James Gunn is back at directing it. I wouldn't put that much weight on the usual twitter outrages.
lykr0n 7y ago
I'm split on this. On one hand this company is pure evil (as i've said before), but on the other this would exactly what I would use to screen employees that I'd hire. There is some terrible shit people say online that reflects who they are as a person who I would want to stay far away from the company I built. EDIT. An example of what I would screen for are the following: - "locker room" discussions on a profile they put their name on. off color jokes and all that - "woke" discussions about oppression and how you're more oppressed if you are X, while group Y isn't Both of those are people who I would not want around.
- ohmaigad 7y ago
  The issue is that there is no way their algorithm understands context. Saying "Fuck nazis" will probably flag you for swearing and being a nazi. An actual person looking your tweets/posts can understand the context.
  - Nuzzerino 7y ago
    An actual person looking at a list of tweets/posts hundreds-long is not going to spend more than a few seconds at most on average per tweet. That's not enough time to understand context. As a matter of fact, I've given up trying to engage on social media debates precisely because most of the time, the other party(ies) in the conversation still do not understand context despite being part of the conversation! Often because they are not spending more than a few seconds themselves. I remember conversations being a lot more civil when done by e-mail.
    - ohmaigad 7y ago
      You don't need a lot more than a few seconds to understand that "Fuck, i am tired" or "Fuck nazis" is not something inherently bad. For an algorithm - i am not so sure (even a company as huge as youtube cannot figure it out).
      - Nuzzerino 7y ago
        That's a poor example. How about a message that gets flagged, where the message is a strong frustration at an issue that is very nuanced? Do you jump to conclusions on the person's point of view? Do you assume that the person is prone to being angry, just because you've seen a selection of angry posts from them? There's many things that can go wrong there, and they will, given a system like this operating in the wild.
mmastrac 7y ago
I saw this on Twitter and emailed a request to "privacy@fama.io" to remove any and all information they have on me.
noeodonn 7y ago
I have engaged in what this company might call "toxic" behavior in online forums, It does not mean I will behave like this in the work place. Sarcastic, anti-social internet trolls are some of the smartest people you'll ever meet and are the people you want working for your company. And they are generally smart enough no know not to behave like that in the workplace.
- malux85 7y ago
  100% correct - the company linked assumes everyone behaves the same all the time in every scenario - which is naive at best. Some forums swearing and sarcasm is OK, it’s not a professional work environment and there’s no obligation to not hurt someone’s wittle fweelings by sugar coating the big fat dose of reality that many people need to hear.
- Mountain_Skies 7y ago
  Do you set up your accounts in a way that makes it easy for others on those forums to associate you with your employer?
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
felixr 7y ago
That's the company behind I had to get a background check for my job; the report is a 300 page pdf - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22211363 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22211363 Right?
vz8 7y ago
Previous threads of interest: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22211363 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22211363 (today) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22086331 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22086331 (14 days ago) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10371715 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10371715 (2015)
mjh2539 7y ago
Can't wait to make people who disagree with my worldview destitute!
hpoe 7y ago
How about I make this offer to companies I'll show up do my job to the best of my ability and get a paycheck, I'll also agree to not talk about politics religion or other contentious issues that lead to bad feelings. In return you agree to judge me on how well I do my job and make you money and we all agree that whatever shit I do on my own time is my problem not yours. How's that sound?
- AwaAwa 7y ago
  This is Madness! Madness I tell you! Honestly, this used to be the norm but now? There is no norm. Only a race in all directions, in the hope of optioning a goal.
dang 7y ago
This main thread this is related to is https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22211363 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22211363. Please don't editorialize titles like that. This is in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
brighton36 7y ago
This may just select for obedient employees. Which, may very well be what employers need. But, it could potentially eliminate diversity of opinion. (Presumably that offers some advantage...)
mikedilger 7y ago
I don't think this is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_credit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_credit
Proven 7y ago
What a shit service to sell. AI ratting.
Uptrenda 7y ago
Okay so everyone go here: https://fama.io/product/ https://fama.io/product/ It has examples of what Fama "finds". Here are some from the website (some might be offensive): 1. “white people can't say the n word, but at least we can say we know our dads and that police don't target us” 2. “Kyle and Pete are really trying to convince me that One Direction is cool. They’re one more gay comment away from being kicked out of my apartment.” 3. “Work is the last place I want to be right now” 4. “Black men like thick chains because it reminds them of the good ‘ol days” 5. “You can’t buy a girl a drink and not have sex with her after, I don’t care what you have to do, get what you paid for.” 6. “Unpopular opinion - black lives only kind of matter.” Plenty of racist comments there. But getting red flagged as a potential 'toxic employee' for saying that you don't like your job? I mean come on... That's dystopian as hell and straight out of 1984. Call me old fashioned but I don't think people should lose future employment opportunities for a few dumb twitter comments. This is taking political correctness to some next-level techno-nightmare. Maybe it's time to get ahead of the curve here and make a startup that provides people with new identities complete with online banking, 'social credit', and face masks to fool humans / AI.
koonsolo 7y ago
I highly doubt that this is legal in EU, but I'm not an expert. The reason is that at my current client, we are not allowed to google a name from an incoming resume, due to privacy reasons. Not even search that person on linkedin. Maybe they are overinterpreting the EU privacy law, but I'm not sure.
jessicachase 7y ago
Hiring a hacker is always tricky . I was on youtube trying to find a hacker for hire service but it was not possible but some comments were directed to the deep web where it is possible to get a hacker for hire services even without paying for an upfront . I followed the link given ( but was with a TOR browser . I ended getting linked to GReyhatzhackers (gmail ) com . and it only took about 8 days for them to help me gain access into a mobile device without asking for an upfront . I think there are levels to this hacking services . I can only verge for them because they engaged in payment only after their services which is very very good deal

59 points by bidart 7y ago

Companies already scan social media. No surprise someone built a company around it. Too bad it does not root out toxic or incompetent management.

rukittenme 7y ago

I would criticize this product but I don't want to lose future employment opportunities.

speedgoose 7y ago
You want to work for companies that use this service?
- rukittenme 7y ago
  Someday we might not have a choice.

withinboredom 7y ago

I'm curious about the legality of it. How do we know it won't discriminate illegally? Or how does an employee dispute the information?

Mountain_Skies 7y ago
The applicant likely will never know why they were rejected. How long would it take for someone to realize they could assassinate the character of a rival or someone they simply didn't like by posting with a fake account in places the AI is likely the source input? The target might never know that the false posts exists while being silently passed over.

endergen 7y ago

Funny how just using the culturally appropriate term “toxic workplace behavior” and all of sudden it doesn’t sound so bad. Who wouldn’t want that.

lykr0n 7y ago
The workplace extends into personal life now. People tweet shit publicly, and they publicly associate themselves with a company via Linkedin. So if this person says the wrong thing, people will harass them and the company they work for. It's the sound business choice to see which employees are saying online and screen for people who could say the wrong thing and cause PR issues for the company.
- ohmaigad 7y ago
  The question is - does the "bad PR" really matter? Is there actual data/research proving that it in fact has an impact on the business profits? I doubt that people won't go and watch the latest Guardians of Galaxy just because James Gunn is back at directing it. I wouldn't put that much weight on the usual twitter outrages.

lykr0n 7y ago

I'm split on this. On one hand this company is pure evil (as i've said before), but on the other this would exactly what I would use to screen employees that I'd hire. There is some terrible shit people say online that reflects who they are as a person who I would want to stay far away from the company I built. EDIT. An example of what I would screen for are the following: - "locker room" discussions on a profile they put their name on. off color jokes and all that - "woke" discussions about oppression and how you're more oppressed if you are X, while group Y isn't Both of those are people who I would not want around.

ohmaigad 7y ago
The issue is that there is no way their algorithm understands context. Saying "Fuck nazis" will probably flag you for swearing and being a nazi. An actual person looking your tweets/posts can understand the context.
- Nuzzerino 7y ago
  An actual person looking at a list of tweets/posts hundreds-long is not going to spend more than a few seconds at most on average per tweet. That's not enough time to understand context. As a matter of fact, I've given up trying to engage on social media debates precisely because most of the time, the other party(ies) in the conversation still do not understand context despite being part of the conversation! Often because they are not spending more than a few seconds themselves. I remember conversations being a lot more civil when done by e-mail.
  - ohmaigad 7y ago
    You don't need a lot more than a few seconds to understand that "Fuck, i am tired" or "Fuck nazis" is not something inherently bad. For an algorithm - i am not so sure (even a company as huge as youtube cannot figure it out).
    - Nuzzerino 7y ago
      That's a poor example. How about a message that gets flagged, where the message is a strong frustration at an issue that is very nuanced? Do you jump to conclusions on the person's point of view? Do you assume that the person is prone to being angry, just because you've seen a selection of angry posts from them? There's many things that can go wrong there, and they will, given a system like this operating in the wild.

mmastrac 7y ago

I saw this on Twitter and emailed a request to "privacy@fama.io" to remove any and all information they have on me.

noeodonn 7y ago

I have engaged in what this company might call "toxic" behavior in online forums, It does not mean I will behave like this in the work place. Sarcastic, anti-social internet trolls are some of the smartest people you'll ever meet and are the people you want working for your company. And they are generally smart enough no know not to behave like that in the workplace.

malux85 7y ago
100% correct - the company linked assumes everyone behaves the same all the time in every scenario - which is naive at best. Some forums swearing and sarcasm is OK, it’s not a professional work environment and there’s no obligation to not hurt someone’s wittle fweelings by sugar coating the big fat dose of reality that many people need to hear.
Mountain_Skies 7y ago
Do you set up your accounts in a way that makes it easy for others on those forums to associate you with your employer?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

felixr 7y ago

That's the company behind I had to get a background check for my job; the report is a 300 page pdf - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22211363 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22211363 Right?

vz8 7y ago

Previous threads of interest: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22211363 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22211363 (today) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22086331 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22086331 (14 days ago) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10371715 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10371715 (2015)

mjh2539 7y ago

Can't wait to make people who disagree with my worldview destitute!

hpoe 7y ago

How about I make this offer to companies I'll show up do my job to the best of my ability and get a paycheck, I'll also agree to not talk about politics religion or other contentious issues that lead to bad feelings. In return you agree to judge me on how well I do my job and make you money and we all agree that whatever shit I do on my own time is my problem not yours. How's that sound?

AwaAwa 7y ago
This is Madness! Madness I tell you! Honestly, this used to be the norm but now? There is no norm. Only a race in all directions, in the hope of optioning a goal.

dang 7y ago

This main thread this is related to is https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22211363 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22211363. Please don't editorialize titles like that. This is in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

brighton36 7y ago

This may just select for obedient employees. Which, may very well be what employers need. But, it could potentially eliminate diversity of opinion. (Presumably that offers some advantage...)

mikedilger 7y ago

I don't think this is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_credit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_credit

Proven 7y ago

What a shit service to sell. AI ratting.

Uptrenda 7y ago

Okay so everyone go here: https://fama.io/product/ https://fama.io/product/ It has examples of what Fama "finds". Here are some from the website (some might be offensive): 1. “white people can't say the n word, but at least we can say we know our dads and that police don't target us” 2. “Kyle and Pete are really trying to convince me that One Direction is cool. They’re one more gay comment away from being kicked out of my apartment.” 3. “Work is the last place I want to be right now” 4. “Black men like thick chains because it reminds them of the good ‘ol days” 5. “You can’t buy a girl a drink and not have sex with her after, I don’t care what you have to do, get what you paid for.” 6. “Unpopular opinion - black lives only kind of matter.” Plenty of racist comments there. But getting red flagged as a potential 'toxic employee' for saying that you don't like your job? I mean come on... That's dystopian as hell and straight out of 1984. Call me old fashioned but I don't think people should lose future employment opportunities for a few dumb twitter comments. This is taking political correctness to some next-level techno-nightmare. Maybe it's time to get ahead of the curve here and make a startup that provides people with new identities complete with online banking, 'social credit', and face masks to fool humans / AI.

koonsolo 7y ago

I highly doubt that this is legal in EU, but I'm not an expert. The reason is that at my current client, we are not allowed to google a name from an incoming resume, due to privacy reasons. Not even search that person on linkedin. Maybe they are overinterpreting the EU privacy law, but I'm not sure.

jessicachase 7y ago

Hiring a hacker is always tricky . I was on youtube trying to find a hacker for hire service but it was not possible but some comments were directed to the deep web where it is possible to get a hacker for hire services even without paying for an upfront . I followed the link given ( but was with a TOR browser . I ended getting linked to GReyhatzhackers (gmail ) com . and it only took about 8 days for them to help me gain access into a mobile device without asking for an upfront . I think there are levels to this hacking services . I can only verge for them because they engaged in payment only after their services which is very very good deal