5 ms·

Interesting thinking, but no matter how well intentioned, I can't get Einstein's quote out of my head: "We can't solve problems by using the same kind of think

by edw519 16y ago

Interesting thinking, but no matter how well intentioned, I can't get Einstein's quote out of my head: "We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them." The problem with formal education's applicability to the business world isn't with the quantity, quality, or breadth or its theory, it's with it's lack of practice. Every time I return to my alma mater to discuss my business with my professors, I come away with the same reaction, "They just don't get it." It's hard to understand that which you have never done. Formal education doesn't need to improve it's delivery of theory, it needs to combine it with real-world practice before graduation. A single internship usually trumps all curriculum gyrations. Two years of theory followed by two years of practice backed by theory would make a much more effective B.S. Are there any educator's that think outside the box enough to make that happen?

arethuza 16y ago
There are (or certainly were when I was in academia) MEng degrees in the UK that are 2 years study, 1 year in industry and another 2 years study.
deleted 16y ago
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deleted 16y ago
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pasbesoin 16y ago
It's also useful, as is the case with many topics these days, to think of risk. Right now, an increasing burden of risk has been and continues to be pushed down onto the student -- in the U.S., at least. A similar thing happened with pensions versus self-managed retirement funds (e.g. 401k's) beginning in the 1970's. Not that stable career paths existed for all time before this, nor managed retirement. But the changes do reflect the current, um, "delta". Where this leads, I don't know. However, a certain amount of stability seems necessary, to me, for fostering advanced, complicated systems including social, employment, and production systems. If everyone's an "entrepreneur", I don't know how we're going to e.g. build jet engines. (I exaggerate for the sake of my point.) I've met those "specialists in cross training". They're called management. A few are genuinely good at it; many aren't particularly good at anything. Addendum: On the other hand, much of Blank's post reads like a variation on the argument for a liberal arts education. He even mentions liberal arts as a component. However... Those liberal arts people need at least a modicum of post-education investment in order to get up to speed in a particular, current area of focus. (And that's when they're good, and really educated: Something neither all liberal arts degrees nor all liberal arts students produce/become.) We're in a marketplace that won't even go that far. Again, placing the risk on the student venturing to pursue that path. P.S. I do think that pre-graduation work is a good idea. I also think that people should be paid for it. Unpaid internships introduce all kinds of distortions, including distortion of the work experience for the interns. Level the playing field, and make it real.
- PaulHoule 16y ago
  I don't think the "jet engine" example is an exaggeration at all. There are days when I'm inspired by Seth Godin and there are days when I think he personifies everything that's wrong with our civilization. If we all had "lynchpin" jobs that were transforming the economy continuously, we'd have no food at the supermarket and no electricity at the plug. The disappearance of dependable jobs for dependable people is a prelude to the disappearance of everything else.
DTrejo 16y ago
At my school, almost all CS students do internships during the summer. By sophomore year almost everyone has an internship with a tech company lined up for the summer. My school may be is an outlier, however.
- henrikschroder 16y ago
  At my school, getting your Master's or Bachelor's degree requires a certain number of weeks (12? I can't remember) of work related to your field of study, which means that almost everyone gets a summer job or two in the industry. However, you can do this at the end of your education, which renders it less useful. Forcing people to take it in the middle of their education would be a lot more useful, but on the other hand it would suck if the job market tanked and a lot of students couldn't continue their studies based on some external cause.
  - zacharycohn 16y ago
    I went to school at RIT where almost all students were required to have several co-ops (paid internships, basically). For a Computer Science, you had to have 4, which means an entire year of work. (The CS program was a 5 year program: 4 years of school interspersed with a year of work). Many people would get coops at Apple, IBM, Google, Microsoft, etc.
Darmani 16y ago
"The problem with formal education's applicability to the business world isn't with the quantity, quality, or breadth or its theory, it's with it's lack of practice." There is nothing like TAing a theory course to disavow you of the former part of that assertion. I'm told that TAing a coding course is great for convincing you of the second part.
tjmaxal 16y ago
it sounds like you are advocating a apprenticeship approach, which of course is a centuries old solution to this kind of problem.
elai 16y ago
Many colleges have internship and co-op placement programs that require 2-4 semesters worth of work, usually during the summer semester, but often in large contiguous chunks. Often students start into the program after just 2 semesters. If 2 semesters is a year of college then many do deliver it. I went into the co-op program at my school and found another programming job myself for about 3 semesters worth of work total.

by edw519 16y ago

arethuza 16y ago

There are (or certainly were when I was in academia) MEng degrees in the UK that are 2 years study, 1 year in industry and another 2 years study.

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

pasbesoin 16y ago

It's also useful, as is the case with many topics these days, to think of risk. Right now, an increasing burden of risk has been and continues to be pushed down onto the student -- in the U.S., at least. A similar thing happened with pensions versus self-managed retirement funds (e.g. 401k's) beginning in the 1970's. Not that stable career paths existed for all time before this, nor managed retirement. But the changes do reflect the current, um, "delta". Where this leads, I don't know. However, a certain amount of stability seems necessary, to me, for fostering advanced, complicated systems including social, employment, and production systems. If everyone's an "entrepreneur", I don't know how we're going to e.g. build jet engines. (I exaggerate for the sake of my point.) I've met those "specialists in cross training". They're called management. A few are genuinely good at it; many aren't particularly good at anything. Addendum: On the other hand, much of Blank's post reads like a variation on the argument for a liberal arts education. He even mentions liberal arts as a component. However... Those liberal arts people need at least a modicum of post-education investment in order to get up to speed in a particular, current area of focus. (And that's when they're good, and really educated: Something neither all liberal arts degrees nor all liberal arts students produce/become.) We're in a marketplace that won't even go that far. Again, placing the risk on the student venturing to pursue that path. P.S. I do think that pre-graduation work is a good idea. I also think that people should be paid for it. Unpaid internships introduce all kinds of distortions, including distortion of the work experience for the interns. Level the playing field, and make it real.

PaulHoule 16y ago
I don't think the "jet engine" example is an exaggeration at all. There are days when I'm inspired by Seth Godin and there are days when I think he personifies everything that's wrong with our civilization. If we all had "lynchpin" jobs that were transforming the economy continuously, we'd have no food at the supermarket and no electricity at the plug. The disappearance of dependable jobs for dependable people is a prelude to the disappearance of everything else.

DTrejo 16y ago

At my school, almost all CS students do internships during the summer. By sophomore year almost everyone has an internship with a tech company lined up for the summer. My school may be is an outlier, however.

henrikschroder 16y ago
At my school, getting your Master's or Bachelor's degree requires a certain number of weeks (12? I can't remember) of work related to your field of study, which means that almost everyone gets a summer job or two in the industry. However, you can do this at the end of your education, which renders it less useful. Forcing people to take it in the middle of their education would be a lot more useful, but on the other hand it would suck if the job market tanked and a lot of students couldn't continue their studies based on some external cause.
- zacharycohn 16y ago
  I went to school at RIT where almost all students were required to have several co-ops (paid internships, basically). For a Computer Science, you had to have 4, which means an entire year of work. (The CS program was a 5 year program: 4 years of school interspersed with a year of work). Many people would get coops at Apple, IBM, Google, Microsoft, etc.

Darmani 16y ago

"The problem with formal education's applicability to the business world isn't with the quantity, quality, or breadth or its theory, it's with it's lack of practice." There is nothing like TAing a theory course to disavow you of the former part of that assertion. I'm told that TAing a coding course is great for convincing you of the second part.

tjmaxal 16y ago

it sounds like you are advocating a apprenticeship approach, which of course is a centuries old solution to this kind of problem.

elai 16y ago

Many colleges have internship and co-op placement programs that require 2-4 semesters worth of work, usually during the summer semester, but often in large contiguous chunks. Often students start into the program after just 2 semesters. If 2 semesters is a year of college then many do deliver it. I went into the co-op program at my school and found another programming job myself for about 3 semesters worth of work total.