5 ms·

Whatever provider of 5G hardware the UK picked - it was always going to be open to foreign power abuse. What they have done is take all three offerings and lim

by Zenst 7y ago

Whatever provider of 5G hardware the UK picked - it was always going to be open to foreign power abuse. What they have done is take all three offerings and limit what percentage of the market they can have - effectively having the country 5G networks provided by a three supplies all having an equal amount of kit in the field. They are also taking the approach of presuming it is potential bad-actor and proactively planning around that. So a bit like putting an IDS/Firewall in place before you realise you need one, you could say. Is it ideal - nope, but the lack of local offering make that impossible anyhow. So plan for the worst and hope for the best, is not a bad plan of action in this instance.

Craighead 7y ago
Chinas authoritarianism is the worst in the world and you'd be wise to stop thinking every country is the same
- Waterluvian 7y ago
  Worst in the world? Probably not. But probably very very close. But that's not really relevant. What's relevant is what China will do to advance its geopolitical and economic interests. And how it uses 5G as an espionage tool to do so. And in my opinion, the US _is_ just as bad as China. I don't trust the US to be any more ethical than China. I completely expect the US to cheat and steal and ruin foreign corporations to advance its own. I think many nations would be equally as bad if they had the capability of the Americans or Chinese or Russians, too.
  - bad_user 7y ago
    I'm not keen on defending the US, but as an European seeing these two countries equated doesn't make sense. The US is a _liberal democracy_ and at least when it comes to Europe, they have been a valuable ally. Saying that the US is just as bad as China, a comunist country that routinely violates human rights and keeps its people in the dark via censorship, I for one don't think it's a rational thought process. And I'm speaking as a citizen of an ex comunist country in Eastern Europe. I know what censorship and living with fear of the state looks and feels like. When the US infects the world with their ideology, what we get is freedom of speech, Hollywood and Coca Cola. I'm horrified however of a world in which China's policies are normalized and their values exported. And before you say anything, think about how we wouldn't be able to have this conversation in China without fearing reprisals against yourself or your family.
    - ethanbond 7y ago
      It’s all the rage these days in “liberal” circles to act like due to recent dysfunction in the US, they’re just as bad as China/Russia/Iran/NK. It’s flatly insane and is destructive to liberalism. These people clearly don’t understand how bad a bad place can be.
      - Barrin92 7y ago
        If we're solely talking about political ideology then yes the US is without a doubt much closer aligned with Europe than China. On trade, however, it gets more complicated. With the increasing mercantilist attitudes in the US and attacks on say, German car manufacturers there is a real issue of Europeans being dependent on the US. If the US increasingly sabotages international institutions and throws its weight around for what appear to be short-term domestic gains it will become more and more unattractive to cooperate. China, while diverging much more on political or humanitarian issues, is a much more globally connected economy. The Asian-European trade already dwarfs the European-Atlantic trade, and that is only increasing, and China has very little incentive to change that deepening integration. I'm a sceptic that liberal values alone (which also seem to be in somewhat short supply today) outweigh the deeper trade relations between Europe and Asia.
        ethanbond 7y ago
        “I’m a sceptic that liberal values alone... outweigh the deeper trade relations between Europe and Asia.” Indeed^ and this is precisely the problem. The US is behaving shamefully right now because our leadership does not understand (or value) that fact. However, this is precisely the point that I am trying to make: It is only people who have enjoyed post-war, liberal peacetime who think that trade relations should be able to threaten this whatsoever. Chinese dominance does not yield the same life that US dominance yields (imperfect as it is).
    - luckylion 7y ago
      > The US is a _liberal democracy_ and at least when it comes to Europe, they have been a valuable ally ... who spied wholesale on our citizens and politicians. Their destabilization campaign in the Middle East and North Africa isn't anywhere close to European interests.
  - dragonelite 7y ago
    Kinda this, it all nice those spoken words about a fair world etc. But the actions of those great powers show a different reality.
  - MockObject 7y ago
    Nevertheless, the point is that UK has less to fear from US espionage than PRC espionage.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
Sounds entirely reasonable as you put it there. Does seem unlikely a British supplier is going to just magically deliver a 5G product that competes with Intel, Broadcom, Hauwei. All the talk that “this should just be open and free” just aren’t being realistic for the telecom industry.
skrebbel 7y ago
> Whatever provider of 5G hardware the UK picked - it was always going to be open to foreign power abuse. Wait, you think the Swedish secret service is going to coerce Ericsson into installing backdoors that let them spy in the UK? I mean, sure, possible, but a bit further fetched than China doing exactly that, no?
- pmlnr 7y ago
  https://www.zdnet.com/article/fortinet-removes-ssh-and-database-backdoors-from-its-siem-product/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/fortinet-removes-ssh-and-datab... Fortinet is American.
- carlmr 7y ago
  Maybe the Swedes backdoored the Beam VM and are laughing now. Since everybody in Telecom uses it.
  - skrebbel 7y ago
    You mean like how Oracle backdoored the JVM and how Israel backdoored PHP? Just checking, this is what you mean, right?
    - catalogia 7y ago
      The tone of your comment seems a bit confrontational, but I'm not sure why. Can you explain it for somebody lacking context?
      - jlgaddis 7y ago
        I'm gonna guess that skrebbel is a Swede.
  - 9q9 7y ago
    For what it's worth, backdoors have been discovered in Ericsson switches, see [1], it's fascinating reading. It's unclear who put them there. Wikipedia [2] alleges that the US embassy in Athens was behind the telephone intercepts. Naturally, Wikipedia is n o t a reliable source in such matters. I used to work in telecoms myself about 20 years ago, and at least at the time, much of infrastructure was insanely insecure -- I could have backdoored much of the internet's backbone as a lone programmer had I wanted to: our software was used by most big telcos. Not once was our code audited (at least openly). I very much hope that security is taken more seriously now. [1] V. Prevelakis, D. Spinellis, The Athens Affair. https://web.archive.org/web/20070704193410/http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/jul07/5280 https://web.archive.org/web/20070704193410/http://www.spectr... The pdf is also available through Spinellis' Google Scholar page. [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_wiretapping_case_2004%E2%80%9305 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_wiretapping_case_2004%E2...

by Zenst 7y ago

Craighead 7y ago

Chinas authoritarianism is the worst in the world and you'd be wise to stop thinking every country is the same

Waterluvian 7y ago
Worst in the world? Probably not. But probably very very close. But that's not really relevant. What's relevant is what China will do to advance its geopolitical and economic interests. And how it uses 5G as an espionage tool to do so. And in my opinion, the US _is_ just as bad as China. I don't trust the US to be any more ethical than China. I completely expect the US to cheat and steal and ruin foreign corporations to advance its own. I think many nations would be equally as bad if they had the capability of the Americans or Chinese or Russians, too.
- bad_user 7y ago
  I'm not keen on defending the US, but as an European seeing these two countries equated doesn't make sense. The US is a _liberal democracy_ and at least when it comes to Europe, they have been a valuable ally. Saying that the US is just as bad as China, a comunist country that routinely violates human rights and keeps its people in the dark via censorship, I for one don't think it's a rational thought process. And I'm speaking as a citizen of an ex comunist country in Eastern Europe. I know what censorship and living with fear of the state looks and feels like. When the US infects the world with their ideology, what we get is freedom of speech, Hollywood and Coca Cola. I'm horrified however of a world in which China's policies are normalized and their values exported. And before you say anything, think about how we wouldn't be able to have this conversation in China without fearing reprisals against yourself or your family.
  - ethanbond 7y ago
    It’s all the rage these days in “liberal” circles to act like due to recent dysfunction in the US, they’re just as bad as China/Russia/Iran/NK. It’s flatly insane and is destructive to liberalism. These people clearly don’t understand how bad a bad place can be.
    - Barrin92 7y ago
      If we're solely talking about political ideology then yes the US is without a doubt much closer aligned with Europe than China. On trade, however, it gets more complicated. With the increasing mercantilist attitudes in the US and attacks on say, German car manufacturers there is a real issue of Europeans being dependent on the US. If the US increasingly sabotages international institutions and throws its weight around for what appear to be short-term domestic gains it will become more and more unattractive to cooperate. China, while diverging much more on political or humanitarian issues, is a much more globally connected economy. The Asian-European trade already dwarfs the European-Atlantic trade, and that is only increasing, and China has very little incentive to change that deepening integration. I'm a sceptic that liberal values alone (which also seem to be in somewhat short supply today) outweigh the deeper trade relations between Europe and Asia.
      - ethanbond 7y ago
        “I’m a sceptic that liberal values alone... outweigh the deeper trade relations between Europe and Asia.” Indeed^ and this is precisely the problem. The US is behaving shamefully right now because our leadership does not understand (or value) that fact. However, this is precisely the point that I am trying to make: It is only people who have enjoyed post-war, liberal peacetime who think that trade relations should be able to threaten this whatsoever. Chinese dominance does not yield the same life that US dominance yields (imperfect as it is).
  - luckylion 7y ago
    > The US is a _liberal democracy_ and at least when it comes to Europe, they have been a valuable ally ... who spied wholesale on our citizens and politicians. Their destabilization campaign in the Middle East and North Africa isn't anywhere close to European interests.
- dragonelite 7y ago
  Kinda this, it all nice those spoken words about a fair world etc. But the actions of those great powers show a different reality.
- MockObject 7y ago
  Nevertheless, the point is that UK has less to fear from US espionage than PRC espionage.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]

SlowRobotAhead 7y ago

Sounds entirely reasonable as you put it there. Does seem unlikely a British supplier is going to just magically deliver a 5G product that competes with Intel, Broadcom, Hauwei. All the talk that “this should just be open and free” just aren’t being realistic for the telecom industry.

skrebbel 7y ago

> Whatever provider of 5G hardware the UK picked - it was always going to be open to foreign power abuse. Wait, you think the Swedish secret service is going to coerce Ericsson into installing backdoors that let them spy in the UK? I mean, sure, possible, but a bit further fetched than China doing exactly that, no?

pmlnr 7y ago
https://www.zdnet.com/article/fortinet-removes-ssh-and-database-backdoors-from-its-siem-product/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/fortinet-removes-ssh-and-datab... Fortinet is American.
carlmr 7y ago
Maybe the Swedes backdoored the Beam VM and are laughing now. Since everybody in Telecom uses it.
- skrebbel 7y ago
  You mean like how Oracle backdoored the JVM and how Israel backdoored PHP? Just checking, this is what you mean, right?
  - catalogia 7y ago
    The tone of your comment seems a bit confrontational, but I'm not sure why. Can you explain it for somebody lacking context?
    - jlgaddis 7y ago
      I'm gonna guess that skrebbel is a Swede.
- 9q9 7y ago
  For what it's worth, backdoors have been discovered in Ericsson switches, see [1], it's fascinating reading. It's unclear who put them there. Wikipedia [2] alleges that the US embassy in Athens was behind the telephone intercepts. Naturally, Wikipedia is n o t a reliable source in such matters. I used to work in telecoms myself about 20 years ago, and at least at the time, much of infrastructure was insanely insecure -- I could have backdoored much of the internet's backbone as a lone programmer had I wanted to: our software was used by most big telcos. Not once was our code audited (at least openly). I very much hope that security is taken more seriously now. [1] V. Prevelakis, D. Spinellis, The Athens Affair. https://web.archive.org/web/20070704193410/http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/jul07/5280 https://web.archive.org/web/20070704193410/http://www.spectr... The pdf is also available through Spinellis' Google Scholar page. [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_wiretapping_case_2004%E2%80%9305 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_wiretapping_case_2004%E2...