5 ms·

Every company doles out bribes. In many countries bribery is the way to go. Things don’t happen without it. They just find creative ways to make it legal that’s

Every company doles out bribes. In many countries bribery is the way to go. Things don’t happen without it. They just find creative ways to make it legal that’s all.

dboreham 7y ago
Except it's illegal to pay bribes (for now, anyway) for US companies (to foreigners): https://www.justice.gov/criminal-fraud/foreign-corrupt-practices-act https://www.justice.gov/criminal-fraud/foreign-corrupt-pract...
- p1esk 7y ago
  Yet it's 100% legal to pay bribes to US government officials (aka lobbying and campaign contributions).
  - roywiggins 7y ago
    It's not entirely for lack of trying on behalf of prosecutors. The courts have narrowed the definition of bribery. https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=c6c23d55-f451-4a0b-ba31-40d77dabc962 https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=c6c23d55-f451...
    - p1esk 7y ago
      So if I'm a Senator/Congressman and Comcast came to me promising $500k for my re-election campaign if only I could help them slow down Google Fiber rollout in some town, is it illegal for me to agree? I mean, this is a bribe, isn't it?
      - dehrmann 7y ago
        I think corporate donors are held to the same limits as individuals: $2,800 per election to the candidate, $5,000 to their reelection committee. The rest (which still totals less than $500k) goes to state and federal party committees. Where the unlimited contributions come in (think Citizens United) are Super PACs, but those aren't technically affiliated with candidates, and they can't contribute to the candidates. The freedom of speech angle on this is that corporations or individuals can spend this money on political ads, but it has to be independent of the candidates. > is it illegal for me to agree? Yes, or it was illegal for them; this exceeds campaign contribution limits.
      - paranoidrobot 7y ago
        If it's structured like that, sure, but it'll not be done that way. One approach is for a politician/candidate to hold a fundraising lunch/dinner/whatever, and charge for seats. Lobbyists and other folks who want to get access to the senator will buy those tickets and get their couple of minutes to talk about whatever issue is important to them. Any direction on bill will almost certainly be of a more indirect nature. It won't be: "Vote against municipal fiber rollouts, and $ISP will give your campaign $10k". It'll be more along the lines of: "We'd find it difficult to support the campaign of someone who wasn't seen to be acting in our best interests. We think that this municipal fiber rollout is bad for $ISP."
        grecy 7y ago
        So you're saying it's 100%, without a doubt bribery, but we're just going to use some tricky language so it doesn't sound like that. America is corrupt to the very core, don't try to explain it away with newspeak or some kind of roundabout language. It's extremely common to buy the favour of politicians.
        p1esk 7y ago
        America is corrupt to the very core Not long ago, I stumbled upon an old book in my uni library - Congress meeting notes from 1860s. It was fascinating to read about some dude who bribed congressmen to get his book published/distributed (the $50 book was about some tax rules, thousands of copies sold). One of his trial responses has stuck in my mind: "You gotta know someone to get things done". Nothing has changed. Oh, in that particular case, back then, a couple of congressmen lost their jobs, but no one went to jail, even though it was proven the bribery took place.
        paranoidrobot 7y ago
        > So you're saying it's 100%, without a doubt bribery, but we're just going to use some tricky language so it doesn't sound like that. Possibly, but it'll depend on your POV and where you draw the line on what's bribery. Scenario 1: I represent a mega-corporation and I want legislation changed to make it easier for my factories to comply with pollution laws by changing the definition of pollution. Is it bribery to say to politicians "Our friends see the current standards on pollution are an impediment to the way we do business. Friends help each other out. Would you like to be our friend?" Scenario 2: I represent a small business, and there's legislation proposed that would make it illegal for me to trade on certain days. I've always given small donations to my local politicians because they've done things that helped my business, but now there's this threat that could ruin my business. Is it bribery if I tell them "If you support this legislation, we, and all the other local businesses owners like me will no longer be donating to your campaign, we're going to support your opposition instead".
      - jessaustin 7y ago
        It's rare that such large sums would go through the campaign-finance slot. Supposedly Biden received only $200k from the credit card industry for his awful bankruptcy "reforms". Of course larger bribes are paid, but they are less direct and less public. One method I've seen up close (I worked for Lucent back when they were in business) is to hire close relatives of favored politicians at vastly inflated salaries for "show-up" jobs for which those relatives had no observable skills. Those relatives would eventually transfer large portions of the millions they "earned" to the politician, but there was no hurry. In addition, there are sweetheart "investment" opportunities that somehow are only offered to politicians. We've all heard about the exorbitant "speaking fees". ISTR a mayor somewhere published a book and arranged for certain constituents to buy thousands of copies of it. Avaricious politicians have imagination.
        IggleSniggle 7y ago
        Perhaps you're thinking of "Healthy Holly," a series of self-published children's books for which Mayor Pugh was paid over $800000, which came to light last year. https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/md-politics/baltimore-mayor-catherine-pugh-resigns-amid-book-scandal-health-problems/2019/05/02/fc91f2b0-67ad-11e9-8985-4cf30147bdca_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/md-politics/baltimore-m...
- LanceH 7y ago
  You are asked for a bribe to get your goods to market in a country. That's illegal for a US company. You hire a local company to expedite the process using their customs experience at 2x the bribe -- poof legal.
  - cpitman 7y ago
    No, under US law you are still responsible for bribery committed by your proxy, and have to have a process in place to ensure that all proxies follow anti bribery laws.
- crishoj 7y ago
  For now, yes. Recent statement from the president: “It’s just so unfair that American companies aren’t allowed to pay bribes to get business overseas. We’re going to change that.” Source: https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/01/donald-trump-bribery-laws https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/01/donald-trump-bribery...
- russdill 7y ago
  It's actually legal to pay someone a bride under FCPA, but only if they are already legally bound to carry out the task you are bribing them to do. The purpose of the bribe in this case is to "expedite" the service. https://globalanticorruptionblog.com/2014/06/17/the-fcpas-facilitating-payments-exception-mostly-harmless/ https://globalanticorruptionblog.com/2014/06/17/the-fcpas-fa...
  - dehrmann 7y ago
    Good news for US businesses doing business in India.
  - perl4ever 7y ago
    I'm not a lawyer much less an international one, but "obviously" there's a difference between a fee for expediting a request that is documented officially and one that is not. I think it would be unreasonable to call the former type a bribe. I recall that there is an option in the US to get your passport faster if you pay an extra fee, but it's not a fee that somebody random made up and they collect.
    - russdill 7y ago
      These are not official fees for expediting a request. They are commonly referred to as "grease payments" and are under the table payments.
- yalogin 7y ago
  I am not advocating for companies to pay bribes. It needs to be a crime and the rest of the world must set a standard.
  - greglindahl 7y ago
    You might want to check out where it is a crime and what agreements big parts of the world have made to make it a crime. The article we're discussing makes these points. Or you could read about them on Wikipedia.
spenczar5 7y ago
“Every company” is obviously hyperbole. My local deli doesn’t bribe anybody. What do you really mean - every $1bn+ revenue aerospace firm?
- georgemcbay 7y ago
  "My local deli doesn’t bribe anybody." You sure? I mean, I agree with you that "every company" is certainly hyperbole, but bribery happens on different scales. Its not all national level and involving 6+ figure sums. I know someone who worked at a local restaurant where the owner bribed someone at the local health inspection office to be tipped off before "random inspections" giving them a couple of days notice to get things sorted out prior to the inspection. I suspect companies committing bribery are the minority, but it can and does happen at the local small-business level.
  - perl4ever 7y ago
    Vehicle inspections.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- Johnny555 7y ago
  My local deli doesn’t bribe anybody How would you know? Maybe he gives his meat guy generous "tips" to bring him fresher meat than the deli down the street
- caoilte 7y ago
  Who knows who comes round every month for protection money. Hopefully it's just the beat cop.
- raverbashing 7y ago
  Every company that sells to governments in "low compliance" (let's put it this way) places. Do you think Mr General/President/Leader of 3rd world country looks at merit/quality only?
- 7y ago
nitwit005 7y ago
With the tiny problem that your sales staff occasionally goes to prison, and your company gets hefty fines.
solarhoma 7y ago
In some countries it is considered the ‘cost of doing business’.

Every company doles out bribes. In many countries bribery is the way to go. Things don’t happen without it. They just find creative ways to make it legal that’s all.

dboreham 7y ago

Except it's illegal to pay bribes (for now, anyway) for US companies (to foreigners): https://www.justice.gov/criminal-fraud/foreign-corrupt-practices-act https://www.justice.gov/criminal-fraud/foreign-corrupt-pract...

p1esk 7y ago
Yet it's 100% legal to pay bribes to US government officials (aka lobbying and campaign contributions).
- roywiggins 7y ago
  It's not entirely for lack of trying on behalf of prosecutors. The courts have narrowed the definition of bribery. https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=c6c23d55-f451-4a0b-ba31-40d77dabc962 https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=c6c23d55-f451...
  - p1esk 7y ago
    So if I'm a Senator/Congressman and Comcast came to me promising $500k for my re-election campaign if only I could help them slow down Google Fiber rollout in some town, is it illegal for me to agree? I mean, this is a bribe, isn't it?
    - dehrmann 7y ago
      I think corporate donors are held to the same limits as individuals: $2,800 per election to the candidate, $5,000 to their reelection committee. The rest (which still totals less than $500k) goes to state and federal party committees. Where the unlimited contributions come in (think Citizens United) are Super PACs, but those aren't technically affiliated with candidates, and they can't contribute to the candidates. The freedom of speech angle on this is that corporations or individuals can spend this money on political ads, but it has to be independent of the candidates. > is it illegal for me to agree? Yes, or it was illegal for them; this exceeds campaign contribution limits.
    - paranoidrobot 7y ago
      If it's structured like that, sure, but it'll not be done that way. One approach is for a politician/candidate to hold a fundraising lunch/dinner/whatever, and charge for seats. Lobbyists and other folks who want to get access to the senator will buy those tickets and get their couple of minutes to talk about whatever issue is important to them. Any direction on bill will almost certainly be of a more indirect nature. It won't be: "Vote against municipal fiber rollouts, and $ISP will give your campaign $10k". It'll be more along the lines of: "We'd find it difficult to support the campaign of someone who wasn't seen to be acting in our best interests. We think that this municipal fiber rollout is bad for $ISP."
      - grecy 7y ago
        So you're saying it's 100%, without a doubt bribery, but we're just going to use some tricky language so it doesn't sound like that. America is corrupt to the very core, don't try to explain it away with newspeak or some kind of roundabout language. It's extremely common to buy the favour of politicians.
        p1esk 7y ago
        America is corrupt to the very core Not long ago, I stumbled upon an old book in my uni library - Congress meeting notes from 1860s. It was fascinating to read about some dude who bribed congressmen to get his book published/distributed (the $50 book was about some tax rules, thousands of copies sold). One of his trial responses has stuck in my mind: "You gotta know someone to get things done". Nothing has changed. Oh, in that particular case, back then, a couple of congressmen lost their jobs, but no one went to jail, even though it was proven the bribery took place.
        paranoidrobot 7y ago
        > So you're saying it's 100%, without a doubt bribery, but we're just going to use some tricky language so it doesn't sound like that. Possibly, but it'll depend on your POV and where you draw the line on what's bribery. Scenario 1: I represent a mega-corporation and I want legislation changed to make it easier for my factories to comply with pollution laws by changing the definition of pollution. Is it bribery to say to politicians "Our friends see the current standards on pollution are an impediment to the way we do business. Friends help each other out. Would you like to be our friend?" Scenario 2: I represent a small business, and there's legislation proposed that would make it illegal for me to trade on certain days. I've always given small donations to my local politicians because they've done things that helped my business, but now there's this threat that could ruin my business. Is it bribery if I tell them "If you support this legislation, we, and all the other local businesses owners like me will no longer be donating to your campaign, we're going to support your opposition instead".
    - jessaustin 7y ago
      It's rare that such large sums would go through the campaign-finance slot. Supposedly Biden received only $200k from the credit card industry for his awful bankruptcy "reforms". Of course larger bribes are paid, but they are less direct and less public. One method I've seen up close (I worked for Lucent back when they were in business) is to hire close relatives of favored politicians at vastly inflated salaries for "show-up" jobs for which those relatives had no observable skills. Those relatives would eventually transfer large portions of the millions they "earned" to the politician, but there was no hurry. In addition, there are sweetheart "investment" opportunities that somehow are only offered to politicians. We've all heard about the exorbitant "speaking fees". ISTR a mayor somewhere published a book and arranged for certain constituents to buy thousands of copies of it. Avaricious politicians have imagination.
      - IggleSniggle 7y ago
        Perhaps you're thinking of "Healthy Holly," a series of self-published children's books for which Mayor Pugh was paid over $800000, which came to light last year. https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/md-politics/baltimore-mayor-catherine-pugh-resigns-amid-book-scandal-health-problems/2019/05/02/fc91f2b0-67ad-11e9-8985-4cf30147bdca_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/md-politics/baltimore-m...
LanceH 7y ago
You are asked for a bribe to get your goods to market in a country. That's illegal for a US company. You hire a local company to expedite the process using their customs experience at 2x the bribe -- poof legal.
- cpitman 7y ago
  No, under US law you are still responsible for bribery committed by your proxy, and have to have a process in place to ensure that all proxies follow anti bribery laws.
crishoj 7y ago
For now, yes. Recent statement from the president: “It’s just so unfair that American companies aren’t allowed to pay bribes to get business overseas. We’re going to change that.” Source: https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/01/donald-trump-bribery-laws https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/01/donald-trump-bribery...
russdill 7y ago
It's actually legal to pay someone a bride under FCPA, but only if they are already legally bound to carry out the task you are bribing them to do. The purpose of the bribe in this case is to "expedite" the service. https://globalanticorruptionblog.com/2014/06/17/the-fcpas-facilitating-payments-exception-mostly-harmless/ https://globalanticorruptionblog.com/2014/06/17/the-fcpas-fa...
- dehrmann 7y ago
  Good news for US businesses doing business in India.
- perl4ever 7y ago
  I'm not a lawyer much less an international one, but "obviously" there's a difference between a fee for expediting a request that is documented officially and one that is not. I think it would be unreasonable to call the former type a bribe. I recall that there is an option in the US to get your passport faster if you pay an extra fee, but it's not a fee that somebody random made up and they collect.
  - russdill 7y ago
    These are not official fees for expediting a request. They are commonly referred to as "grease payments" and are under the table payments.
yalogin 7y ago
I am not advocating for companies to pay bribes. It needs to be a crime and the rest of the world must set a standard.
- greglindahl 7y ago
  You might want to check out where it is a crime and what agreements big parts of the world have made to make it a crime. The article we're discussing makes these points. Or you could read about them on Wikipedia.

spenczar5 7y ago

“Every company” is obviously hyperbole. My local deli doesn’t bribe anybody. What do you really mean - every $1bn+ revenue aerospace firm?

georgemcbay 7y ago
"My local deli doesn’t bribe anybody." You sure? I mean, I agree with you that "every company" is certainly hyperbole, but bribery happens on different scales. Its not all national level and involving 6+ figure sums. I know someone who worked at a local restaurant where the owner bribed someone at the local health inspection office to be tipped off before "random inspections" giving them a couple of days notice to get things sorted out prior to the inspection. I suspect companies committing bribery are the minority, but it can and does happen at the local small-business level.
- perl4ever 7y ago
  Vehicle inspections.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
Johnny555 7y ago
My local deli doesn’t bribe anybody How would you know? Maybe he gives his meat guy generous "tips" to bring him fresher meat than the deli down the street
caoilte 7y ago
Who knows who comes round every month for protection money. Hopefully it's just the beat cop.
raverbashing 7y ago
Every company that sells to governments in "low compliance" (let's put it this way) places. Do you think Mr General/President/Leader of 3rd world country looks at merit/quality only?
7y ago

nitwit005 7y ago

With the tiny problem that your sales staff occasionally goes to prison, and your company gets hefty fines.

solarhoma 7y ago

In some countries it is considered the ‘cost of doing business’.