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This has nothing to do with what I said.

by nkkollaw 7y ago

dredmorbius 7y ago
Incorrect. Media influence society.
- nkkollaw 7y ago
  I literally have no idea what you're talking about. Whatever you say, though.
  - dredmorbius 7y ago
    Think of society as a system, and approach the social sxiences as systems sciences -- psychology, sociology, economics, political science. They have state, observation, processing logic, interaction, and some new state -- a basic control loop or OODA loop. That's the basic premise of Norbert Wiener (Cybernetics https://www.worldcat.org/title/cybernetics-or-control-and-communication-in-the-animal-and-the-machine/oclc/1120692518 https://www.worldcat.org/title/cybernetics-or-control-and-co... and The Human Use of Human Beings https://www.worldcat.org/title/human-use-of-human-beings-cybernetics-and-society/oclc/748989559 https://www.worldcat.org/title/human-use-of-human-beings-cyb... -- horrible title, great book), Alfed Kuhn, The study of society : a multidisciplinary approach https://www.worldcat.org/title/study-of-society-a-multidisciplinary-approach/oclc/1079762282 https://www.worldcat.org/title/study-of-society-a-multidisci...), Jay Forrester, and others. Media are the informational element of that loop. Change it, and you change behaviour. So, no, media don't merely reflect society, any more than a mirror merely reflects a person's image. In the first place, mirrors change behaviour. In the second, media are far more than a mirror -- they adapt, transform, store, play back, transmit (in both space and time), amplify and attenuate, information. They reveal state; they express will, control, and narrative; they create and propogate shared (and novel) models of understanding; any they apply to both human and mechanical systems (as well as, arguably, nonhuman biological systems). The key point is that if you change the informational component of a system, you change its behaviour fundamentally. Its range, bandwidth, latency, scale, topology (peer-to-peer, star/broadcast, web/mesh), fidelity, recording and playback capabilities, modalities (symbols, icons, text, pictures, sound, video, data, ...), search, association, fungibility (modifiability / rewritability of content), and more. That's the basic message of Marshall McLuhan (The Medium is the Message and Gutenberg's Galaxy), of Elisabeth Eisenstein (The Printing Press as an Agent of Change), and others.

This has nothing to do with what I said.

dredmorbius 7y ago

Incorrect. Media influence society.

nkkollaw 7y ago
I literally have no idea what you're talking about. Whatever you say, though.
- dredmorbius 7y ago
  Think of society as a system, and approach the social sxiences as systems sciences -- psychology, sociology, economics, political science. They have state, observation, processing logic, interaction, and some new state -- a basic control loop or OODA loop. That's the basic premise of Norbert Wiener (Cybernetics https://www.worldcat.org/title/cybernetics-or-control-and-communication-in-the-animal-and-the-machine/oclc/1120692518 https://www.worldcat.org/title/cybernetics-or-control-and-co... and The Human Use of Human Beings https://www.worldcat.org/title/human-use-of-human-beings-cybernetics-and-society/oclc/748989559 https://www.worldcat.org/title/human-use-of-human-beings-cyb... -- horrible title, great book), Alfed Kuhn, The study of society : a multidisciplinary approach https://www.worldcat.org/title/study-of-society-a-multidisciplinary-approach/oclc/1079762282 https://www.worldcat.org/title/study-of-society-a-multidisci...), Jay Forrester, and others. Media are the informational element of that loop. Change it, and you change behaviour. So, no, media don't merely reflect society, any more than a mirror merely reflects a person's image. In the first place, mirrors change behaviour. In the second, media are far more than a mirror -- they adapt, transform, store, play back, transmit (in both space and time), amplify and attenuate, information. They reveal state; they express will, control, and narrative; they create and propogate shared (and novel) models of understanding; any they apply to both human and mechanical systems (as well as, arguably, nonhuman biological systems). The key point is that if you change the informational component of a system, you change its behaviour fundamentally. Its range, bandwidth, latency, scale, topology (peer-to-peer, star/broadcast, web/mesh), fidelity, recording and playback capabilities, modalities (symbols, icons, text, pictures, sound, video, data, ...), search, association, fungibility (modifiability / rewritability of content), and more. That's the basic message of Marshall McLuhan (The Medium is the Message and Gutenberg's Galaxy), of Elisabeth Eisenstein (The Printing Press as an Agent of Change), and others.