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You'd probably end with significantly different results based on country. Somehow the underlying logic of mapping AI seems to be more-or-less of a fit for natio

by K0SM0S 7y ago

You'd probably end with significantly different results based on country. Somehow the underlying logic of mapping AI seems to be more-or-less of a fit for national road systems — for instance in Europe, with lots of discrepancies between borders, it's really hit or miss: in France and Germany I end up on stupid country roads to save 2 minutes on a 2h drive, but that seldom happens in the Netherlands (granted they have a great road infrastructure). Switzerland is a mess too. My intuition (listening to AI and DL podcasts) is that they just train too-general US-based (or evaluated or reinforced more specifically) models. Anyhow it's a disappointing situation that e.g. Google maps makes way more mistakes today than it did 5 years ago (but it also does more overall, I guess it's a trade-off, e.g. now it's great for public transportation in large enough cities).

Swizec 7y ago
I remember using some car’s built-in GPS once and it wanted me to take every freeway exit and get right back on after. Because it decided that saves time/distance. Maps really need a “not worth it” features for tiny optimizations. I’d often prefer a slightly slower route that’s less work to drive.
- K0SM0S 7y ago
  Oh please YES, the "not worth it", followed by an option to "please take me back to previous path before (because) latest fork = mistake". The very idea of judging the overall travel is a good start (at the end, when they prompt you) but individual datapoints should be reportable as well. I'm pretty sure this would massively help build a dataset with "annotated" cases (good / bad) for RNNs. > I’d often prefer a slightly slower route that’s less work to drive. Me too, and I suspect most people — like, when is it ever a good option to avoid a free highway to save 1 minute when the driving is twice or more fatiguing? Are we bodyless machines or animals with a concept for "tired" and "attention"? This is where I feel recent evolutions in DL have been, perhaps, more for the benefit of developers and researchers (efficiency), and maybe not for real human benefits on the user side. I don't claim the problem is easy, but I know second-hand that what users want and what AI projects solve for may be two very different X.
  - johnmaguire2013 7y ago
    > please take me back to previous path before (because) latest fork = mistake Seriously. I regularly travel from Ohio to Michigan and back, and often times if I take an exit for gas, Google Maps will assume I want to take an obscure country backroad for the final 2 hours rather than get back on the highway. I absolutely do not want to worry about deer, a lack of gas stations, food, and light.
    - sjwright 7y ago
      This is especially true in the UK where most rural roads are nominally 60 MPH even if they’re barely wide enough for two cars.
- manicpolymath 7y ago
  > I remember using some car’s built-in GPS once and it wanted me to take every freeway exit and get right back on after. Because it decided that saves time/distance. It feels like cheating to the other drivers who didn’t take the “short cut” and leads to delays all around due to the extra merging going on. (exhibit A: I-85N vs. I-285 in Atlanta, aka Spaghetti Junction)
  - scarface74 7y ago
    I live in Atlanta. I’m curious what do you mean?
- codyb 7y ago
  My Mom doesn’t even use a cellphone, much less map directions. But she always is amazed at the directions given because she’ll pull out a map and do something with 3 turns what’ll have 20 turns on the map direction. She’s certainly not wrong that from a UX perspective, simple can be really nice, especially if you’re driving on crowded roads and want to focus on driving.
- Smoosh 7y ago
  Another possible option to make navigation more human-friendly would be "keep route simple" - so minimize the number of turns, complex intersections, road works (even without delays), backstreets etc, even at the cost of a few minutes extra travel time or extra distance.
acdha 7y ago
It’s horrible even in the U.S.: the model seems to assume left turns are cheap so I always get these routes which involve 15 minutes sitting at an unprotected turn across heavy traffic. I, and apparently a number of other people I‘ve heard mention it, have largely stopped using it because the times are wildly off - and that’s along the East coast in some very popular areas, not exactly an obscure edge case.
- CamperBob2 7y ago
  It's just incredible that major map providers don't understand how problematic left turns are. There's a reason you seldom see UPS and FedEx trucks trying to turn left in crowded urban settings. It's because they cost time and money. Why don't Google and Apple understand that, and give us an option to avoid or discourage left turns?
  - madcaptenor 7y ago
    Or even just avoid turns in general. When I moved to Atlanta in 2014 and was using Google Maps for everything, before I knew my way around, it would often send me on complicated routes that clearly were meant to save a minute or two by doing a "staircase" sort of routing with more turns. Even right turns end up taking time and causing stress because I was always in the wrong lane. (I think they've gotten better with the lane indicators.)
- rootusrootus 7y ago
  I've been bitten by that multiple times, and had to learn to check a few turns ahead to make sure I'm not about to be asked to make an unprotected left turn across rush-hour traffic in an attempt to save 2 minutes at a light. I would be interested in trying out a "no left turns" (or at least no unprotected left turns) route preference.
- cuddlybacon 7y ago
  > the model seems to assume left turns are cheap Happens to me all the time. It also seems to assume crossing a bridge at rush hour is cheap. My only guess, and this truly is a guess, it is sees people in the bridge lane stopped and the thru lane moving and takes the average.

by K0SM0S 7y ago

Swizec 7y ago

I remember using some car’s built-in GPS once and it wanted me to take every freeway exit and get right back on after. Because it decided that saves time/distance. Maps really need a “not worth it” features for tiny optimizations. I’d often prefer a slightly slower route that’s less work to drive.

K0SM0S 7y ago
Oh please YES, the "not worth it", followed by an option to "please take me back to previous path before (because) latest fork = mistake". The very idea of judging the overall travel is a good start (at the end, when they prompt you) but individual datapoints should be reportable as well. I'm pretty sure this would massively help build a dataset with "annotated" cases (good / bad) for RNNs. > I’d often prefer a slightly slower route that’s less work to drive. Me too, and I suspect most people — like, when is it ever a good option to avoid a free highway to save 1 minute when the driving is twice or more fatiguing? Are we bodyless machines or animals with a concept for "tired" and "attention"? This is where I feel recent evolutions in DL have been, perhaps, more for the benefit of developers and researchers (efficiency), and maybe not for real human benefits on the user side. I don't claim the problem is easy, but I know second-hand that what users want and what AI projects solve for may be two very different X.
- johnmaguire2013 7y ago
  > please take me back to previous path before (because) latest fork = mistake Seriously. I regularly travel from Ohio to Michigan and back, and often times if I take an exit for gas, Google Maps will assume I want to take an obscure country backroad for the final 2 hours rather than get back on the highway. I absolutely do not want to worry about deer, a lack of gas stations, food, and light.
  - sjwright 7y ago
    This is especially true in the UK where most rural roads are nominally 60 MPH even if they’re barely wide enough for two cars.
manicpolymath 7y ago
> I remember using some car’s built-in GPS once and it wanted me to take every freeway exit and get right back on after. Because it decided that saves time/distance. It feels like cheating to the other drivers who didn’t take the “short cut” and leads to delays all around due to the extra merging going on. (exhibit A: I-85N vs. I-285 in Atlanta, aka Spaghetti Junction)
- scarface74 7y ago
  I live in Atlanta. I’m curious what do you mean?
codyb 7y ago
My Mom doesn’t even use a cellphone, much less map directions. But she always is amazed at the directions given because she’ll pull out a map and do something with 3 turns what’ll have 20 turns on the map direction. She’s certainly not wrong that from a UX perspective, simple can be really nice, especially if you’re driving on crowded roads and want to focus on driving.
Smoosh 7y ago
Another possible option to make navigation more human-friendly would be "keep route simple" - so minimize the number of turns, complex intersections, road works (even without delays), backstreets etc, even at the cost of a few minutes extra travel time or extra distance.

acdha 7y ago

It’s horrible even in the U.S.: the model seems to assume left turns are cheap so I always get these routes which involve 15 minutes sitting at an unprotected turn across heavy traffic. I, and apparently a number of other people I‘ve heard mention it, have largely stopped using it because the times are wildly off - and that’s along the East coast in some very popular areas, not exactly an obscure edge case.

CamperBob2 7y ago
It's just incredible that major map providers don't understand how problematic left turns are. There's a reason you seldom see UPS and FedEx trucks trying to turn left in crowded urban settings. It's because they cost time and money. Why don't Google and Apple understand that, and give us an option to avoid or discourage left turns?
- madcaptenor 7y ago
  Or even just avoid turns in general. When I moved to Atlanta in 2014 and was using Google Maps for everything, before I knew my way around, it would often send me on complicated routes that clearly were meant to save a minute or two by doing a "staircase" sort of routing with more turns. Even right turns end up taking time and causing stress because I was always in the wrong lane. (I think they've gotten better with the lane indicators.)
rootusrootus 7y ago
I've been bitten by that multiple times, and had to learn to check a few turns ahead to make sure I'm not about to be asked to make an unprotected left turn across rush-hour traffic in an attempt to save 2 minutes at a light. I would be interested in trying out a "no left turns" (or at least no unprotected left turns) route preference.
cuddlybacon 7y ago
> the model seems to assume left turns are cheap Happens to me all the time. It also seems to assume crossing a bridge at rush hour is cheap. My only guess, and this truly is a guess, it is sees people in the bridge lane stopped and the thru lane moving and takes the average.