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Exactly this. The DoD basically took the mistakes of the F-111 program, doubled down on them, and added on some reckless new mistakes. The result is the most

Exactly this. The DoD basically took the mistakes of the F-111 program, doubled down on them, and added on some reckless new mistakes. The result is the most expensive weapons program in history.

DuskStar 7y ago
And congress went along with it (or encouraged it) because theoretically it would be cheaper... (And the Marines liked it because no one was going to spend the money to build a stealthy V/STOL strike fighter for them unless it was part of someone else's development budget) (And the Navy IIRC just wanted their fucking A-12 [0] already) 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_A-12_Avenger_II https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_A-12_Avenger...
- Already__Taken 7y ago
  It's mental the v22 osprey platform isn't further explored.
  - DuskStar 7y ago
    What do you mean? Bell's working on a followup right now, as an entry in the US army's Future Vertical Lift program [0]. And the osprey itself is still getting adopted in more places - I think carrier onboard delivery is its latest role. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_V-280_Valor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_V-280_Valor
- Already__Taken 7y ago
  > 2009 ... required the two contractors to repay the U.S. government US$1.35 billion, plus interest charges of US$1.45 billion ... > January 2014, the case was settled with Boeing and General Dynamics agreeing to pay $200 million each. Quite the settlement
smacktoward 7y ago
The old "sports car/dump truck" problem: you can make a good sports car, you can make a good dump truck, but what you can't make is a good sports car that is also a good dump truck.
- cameldrv 7y ago
  You can almost though. Make it out of titanium, give it gas turbine engines with an electric drive, put the thing on hydraulics so it can get lower to the ground, add electronic stability control to get artificial sports car feel, and some rocket thrusters on the top to keep it from tipping over in tight turns. Maybe you could make the tires out of some metamaterial so it can have slick tires for racing and deep treads for the construction site. All of that is to say it can be done, but you're going to pay, and it might not be delivered on time.
  - tempestn 7y ago
    Nice extension of the metaphor. Makes building the sports dump truck sound very much like the F35 project.
- natmaka 7y ago
  Things are more and more complicated (interacting, and also wide, dense, fast-moving...), and therefore unpredictability grows. This is true for nearly everythoing, and war reflects it, as up to the Industrial Revolution things (strategy, tactics, weaponry...) evolved gradually. Nowadays nobody knows anymore how all this really works, therefore there is less and less way to predict (how/what/why/when/...) sufficiently accurately in order to prepare/act adequately (for example to equip soldiers). Hence the need for "something which can cope with any situation". Fun fact: this 'something' has to be complicated, adding up complication to the complicated global state of affairs, nurturing the very cause of the underlying challenge.

Exactly this. The DoD basically took the mistakes of the F-111 program, doubled down on them, and added on some reckless new mistakes. The result is the most expensive weapons program in history.

DuskStar 7y ago

And congress went along with it (or encouraged it) because theoretically it would be cheaper... (And the Marines liked it because no one was going to spend the money to build a stealthy V/STOL strike fighter for them unless it was part of someone else's development budget) (And the Navy IIRC just wanted their fucking A-12 [0] already) 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_A-12_Avenger_II https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_A-12_Avenger...

Already__Taken 7y ago
It's mental the v22 osprey platform isn't further explored.
- DuskStar 7y ago
  What do you mean? Bell's working on a followup right now, as an entry in the US army's Future Vertical Lift program [0]. And the osprey itself is still getting adopted in more places - I think carrier onboard delivery is its latest role. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_V-280_Valor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_V-280_Valor
Already__Taken 7y ago
> 2009 ... required the two contractors to repay the U.S. government US$1.35 billion, plus interest charges of US$1.45 billion ... > January 2014, the case was settled with Boeing and General Dynamics agreeing to pay $200 million each. Quite the settlement

smacktoward 7y ago

The old "sports car/dump truck" problem: you can make a good sports car, you can make a good dump truck, but what you can't make is a good sports car that is also a good dump truck.

cameldrv 7y ago
You can almost though. Make it out of titanium, give it gas turbine engines with an electric drive, put the thing on hydraulics so it can get lower to the ground, add electronic stability control to get artificial sports car feel, and some rocket thrusters on the top to keep it from tipping over in tight turns. Maybe you could make the tires out of some metamaterial so it can have slick tires for racing and deep treads for the construction site. All of that is to say it can be done, but you're going to pay, and it might not be delivered on time.
- tempestn 7y ago
  Nice extension of the metaphor. Makes building the sports dump truck sound very much like the F35 project.
natmaka 7y ago
Things are more and more complicated (interacting, and also wide, dense, fast-moving...), and therefore unpredictability grows. This is true for nearly everythoing, and war reflects it, as up to the Industrial Revolution things (strategy, tactics, weaponry...) evolved gradually. Nowadays nobody knows anymore how all this really works, therefore there is less and less way to predict (how/what/why/when/...) sufficiently accurately in order to prepare/act adequately (for example to equip soldiers). Hence the need for "something which can cope with any situation". Fun fact: this 'something' has to be complicated, adding up complication to the complicated global state of affairs, nurturing the very cause of the underlying challenge.