4 ms·

You can still do that. However, I, as a receiver of email, get thousands of spam messages a day. So, I use services that block them before they even reach my v

You can still do that. However, I, as a receiver of email, get thousands of spam messages a day. So, I use services that block them before they even reach my view, or get sent directly to the spam folder. If you want to send me an email, that's solved. If you want to send it to ten thousand people on your mailing list, and not have it end up in the spam folder, you may have more work.

bigtunacan 7y ago
Please explain the difference to me. Mailgun is sending tons and tons of spam email; what is so special about them that they aren't ending up in people's spam/junk folders?
- slig 7y ago
  They probably send much, much more valid emails, respond quickly to abuse reports, and since they're large/known enough, they won't get blacklisted because that would be disruptive to large, legit business.
- aseipp 7y ago
  Mail providers like Mailgun live or die based on their reputation. If they as a sender get marked as spam by "The Algorithms", then their product is useless. They almost certainly respond to abuse reports quickly and have enough reputation, and enough legitimate clients, that they have "leeway". But that leeway isn't unlimited. There was a big fit thrown on this website a year or two ago when one transactional mail provider (MailChimp?) said they were banning crypto companies with ICOs from their service. They literally put "ICOs are not welcome" in their Terms of Service. Why? Because first off, ICOs are scams. And that means they buy email lists, and then spam the shit out of people with "buy into our ICO!" emails, which get immediately shitcanned into the spam folder by 99.99% of users -- they're no different than Nigerian Princes, as far as most people care. That behavior tanks the reputation of the sender, and you cannot reason with The Algorithm once it "recognizes" you as spam. That kind of problem is not a minor inconvenience to companies like Mailgun, it's an existential threat.
  - lolc 7y ago
    They really care with their reputation on the line. Here for example is their response to the only complaint I've had to send Mailgun: "Thanks for sending this over. I was able to tie this sender to a compromised account, which has been disabled in our system to prevent further messages." Pity we'll have to move off them. It was good while it lasted.
staticautomatic 7y ago
This raises what's really the ultimate question, which is whether and how much individuals should be made to suffer so that advertisers can send spam. Certainly the recipients are not responsible for the advertisers' decisions to spam, or more charitably, to blur the lines. Yet it's individuals who pay, in this case literally, for the advertisers' privilege of spamming them. It's extremely fucked.
- edmundsauto 7y ago
  I think this is what happens in open systems. The alternative is walled gardens, like FB messages. Even those suffer from spam, although it's much less of the wild west.
  - mc3 7y ago
    The alternative is simple: For stranger to stranger communication, both business and non-business set up a web form. With a challenge if needed. For friend to friend communication, use email, friends' address in on a white list. For business to consumer communication, white list is again used. For spammer to anyone communication, including business lists that refuse to take you off, not on white list so doesn't get in. Bounce response with reason "non on white list" It's a cultural change though: an email address won't get through unless you are unblocked, but technically easy.
    - sokoloff 7y ago
      What's the easy/low-friction way for Joe Random Consumer to manage their whitelists? An email comes in from a sender address which isn't on the whitelist, but is (in fact) a friend. What's the handling? An email comes in from a sender address which isn't on the whitelist, but is not (in fact) a friend. What's the handling? Do I never hear from the first friend? Or do I get bombarded with "hey, read this email and see if the sender is a friend" a bunch of times?
      - mc3 7y ago
        Fair game. You got me, I have no nice answer other than phone your friend. I'll stop digging. I'm not going to do what this guy did: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16862739 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16862739
mirimir 7y ago
That cuts both ways. You might miss something valuable. Perhaps from a long-lost relative. Or a prospective client or employer. And once you're actually looking through the spam folder, what good is it really?

bigtunacan 7y ago

Please explain the difference to me. Mailgun is sending tons and tons of spam email; what is so special about them that they aren't ending up in people's spam/junk folders?

slig 7y ago
They probably send much, much more valid emails, respond quickly to abuse reports, and since they're large/known enough, they won't get blacklisted because that would be disruptive to large, legit business.
aseipp 7y ago
Mail providers like Mailgun live or die based on their reputation. If they as a sender get marked as spam by "The Algorithms", then their product is useless. They almost certainly respond to abuse reports quickly and have enough reputation, and enough legitimate clients, that they have "leeway". But that leeway isn't unlimited. There was a big fit thrown on this website a year or two ago when one transactional mail provider (MailChimp?) said they were banning crypto companies with ICOs from their service. They literally put "ICOs are not welcome" in their Terms of Service. Why? Because first off, ICOs are scams. And that means they buy email lists, and then spam the shit out of people with "buy into our ICO!" emails, which get immediately shitcanned into the spam folder by 99.99% of users -- they're no different than Nigerian Princes, as far as most people care. That behavior tanks the reputation of the sender, and you cannot reason with The Algorithm once it "recognizes" you as spam. That kind of problem is not a minor inconvenience to companies like Mailgun, it's an existential threat.
- lolc 7y ago
  They really care with their reputation on the line. Here for example is their response to the only complaint I've had to send Mailgun: "Thanks for sending this over. I was able to tie this sender to a compromised account, which has been disabled in our system to prevent further messages." Pity we'll have to move off them. It was good while it lasted.

staticautomatic 7y ago

This raises what's really the ultimate question, which is whether and how much individuals should be made to suffer so that advertisers can send spam. Certainly the recipients are not responsible for the advertisers' decisions to spam, or more charitably, to blur the lines. Yet it's individuals who pay, in this case literally, for the advertisers' privilege of spamming them. It's extremely fucked.

edmundsauto 7y ago
I think this is what happens in open systems. The alternative is walled gardens, like FB messages. Even those suffer from spam, although it's much less of the wild west.
- mc3 7y ago
  The alternative is simple: For stranger to stranger communication, both business and non-business set up a web form. With a challenge if needed. For friend to friend communication, use email, friends' address in on a white list. For business to consumer communication, white list is again used. For spammer to anyone communication, including business lists that refuse to take you off, not on white list so doesn't get in. Bounce response with reason "non on white list" It's a cultural change though: an email address won't get through unless you are unblocked, but technically easy.
  - sokoloff 7y ago
    What's the easy/low-friction way for Joe Random Consumer to manage their whitelists? An email comes in from a sender address which isn't on the whitelist, but is (in fact) a friend. What's the handling? An email comes in from a sender address which isn't on the whitelist, but is not (in fact) a friend. What's the handling? Do I never hear from the first friend? Or do I get bombarded with "hey, read this email and see if the sender is a friend" a bunch of times?
    - mc3 7y ago
      Fair game. You got me, I have no nice answer other than phone your friend. I'll stop digging. I'm not going to do what this guy did: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16862739 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16862739

mirimir 7y ago

That cuts both ways. You might miss something valuable. Perhaps from a long-lost relative. Or a prospective client or employer. And once you're actually looking through the spam folder, what good is it really?