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The problem with esoteric languages in this modern era (with the web) is what I called the "college music problem" with the increase of college radio. By the t

The problem with esoteric languages in this modern era (with the web) is what I called the "college music problem" with the increase of college radio. By the time the early 2000s hit, the people who listened to college radio no longer self-selected for people who knew a lot about music, but rather were just people who were generally anti-establishment. But they hadn't built up an especially rich musical knowledge base. Fast forward to 2011 and languages. Now I'm almost as likely to see Clojure on a resume as C++. Yet the quality of applicants doesn't seem to have gone up all that much. TDD knowledge seems to be MUCH more prominent, but I haven't noticed an uptick in knowledge of algorithms, complexity, anything under the hood, or programming (as can be judged in a day long interview). In 2011 the choice of language says less about the programming ability of the person, and probably more about their personality. Much like the college radio heads weren't especially musically sophisticated (on average, but of course some were brilliant), but they all seemed to share a counter-cultural vibe (even when you went from goth to hip hop to polka).

chris_j 16y ago
Do you think that choosing a non-mainstream language is really the result of some sort of counter-culture vibe? Some desire to be different? I ask this because I am a fan of Python and Clojure. I got into both as a result of reading pg's essays on Python and Lisp many years ago. Both languages were sold to me not as an act of rebellion but as more-powerful, higher-level languages that could get the job done more quickly. I quickly found this to be the case, compared to Java which I was used to. Nowadays, I grimace when I have to use Java or C and find myself missing a language feature from Python or Clojure that could have saved me an awful lot of typing and repeating myself. So, in my experience, was the choice of esoteric languages born of a desire to be different? No. Does it make me out as being an amazing programmer? Sadly no, not necessarily. I'd like to think, though, that it at least shows that I was enthusiastic enough to learn and use languages that I get a lot of benefit from.
- kenjackson 16y ago
  Do you think that choosing a non-mainstream language is really the result of some sort of counter-culture vibe? Some desire to be different? Not necessarily, but often so. More specifically, I think it used to signal someone who was more enthusiastic, passionate, engaged -- but now people will use them because they think it signals these things. And I don't think its intentional. But I think a lot like college radio, you see the guy who is leading the crew of outsiders and you see what he listens to. You see a lot of people who are signaling what resonates with you and follow that. It's odd that C++ is one of the most denigrated languages on the planet -- yet it really does seem like the people I know who most write C++ code still are a lot more hardcore than those I know who do Clojure (and its odd that I may know more people that do Clojure than C++). To put it another way the people doing the less mainstream languages are often putting themselves in the middle of it... "look at me -- look at the language I'm using". People doing C++ are saying, "look at my code -- look at my app".
hassy 16y ago
You make a good point. The solution is quite simple though, look at what they did with the non-mainstream language and ask a few questions. In my case, it would take me a couple of minutes to find out if someone just read "Programming Erlang" or a few online tutorial or if they have indeed built an OTP app.

chris_j 16y ago

Do you think that choosing a non-mainstream language is really the result of some sort of counter-culture vibe? Some desire to be different? I ask this because I am a fan of Python and Clojure. I got into both as a result of reading pg's essays on Python and Lisp many years ago. Both languages were sold to me not as an act of rebellion but as more-powerful, higher-level languages that could get the job done more quickly. I quickly found this to be the case, compared to Java which I was used to. Nowadays, I grimace when I have to use Java or C and find myself missing a language feature from Python or Clojure that could have saved me an awful lot of typing and repeating myself. So, in my experience, was the choice of esoteric languages born of a desire to be different? No. Does it make me out as being an amazing programmer? Sadly no, not necessarily. I'd like to think, though, that it at least shows that I was enthusiastic enough to learn and use languages that I get a lot of benefit from.

kenjackson 16y ago
Do you think that choosing a non-mainstream language is really the result of some sort of counter-culture vibe? Some desire to be different? Not necessarily, but often so. More specifically, I think it used to signal someone who was more enthusiastic, passionate, engaged -- but now people will use them because they think it signals these things. And I don't think its intentional. But I think a lot like college radio, you see the guy who is leading the crew of outsiders and you see what he listens to. You see a lot of people who are signaling what resonates with you and follow that. It's odd that C++ is one of the most denigrated languages on the planet -- yet it really does seem like the people I know who most write C++ code still are a lot more hardcore than those I know who do Clojure (and its odd that I may know more people that do Clojure than C++). To put it another way the people doing the less mainstream languages are often putting themselves in the middle of it... "look at me -- look at the language I'm using". People doing C++ are saying, "look at my code -- look at my app".

hassy 16y ago

You make a good point. The solution is quite simple though, look at what they did with the non-mainstream language and ask a few questions. In my case, it would take me a couple of minutes to find out if someone just read "Programming Erlang" or a few online tutorial or if they have indeed built an OTP app.