3 ms·

You know that got me thinking, biking rules vary far more than for cars. Depending on your location, pedestrian traffic, streets, street traffic, etc. It might

You know that got me thinking, biking rules vary far more than for cars. Depending on your location, pedestrian traffic, streets, street traffic, etc. It might be best for you to be on the sidewalk. Or maybe you should instead be on the road since the road is only 25mph and there's pedestrians on the sidewalk. Maybe there's a bike lane, maybe there isn't. Maybe a town has a law saying you HAVE to bike on the road. Are you allowed to cut through parking lots? Is it a dirt road? Can everyone's bikes handle dirt roads? What if it just rained, cars can still cross a wet dirt road, but I'd rather take a different route if possible on a bike. That's not including the terrain challenges (which google seems to incorporate). I'd far rather take a route that takes an extra 5 minutes and is basically level vs a route that saves time but requires you to go down and uphill. Heck even wind conditions change can change the "optimal route" in some cases.

taylorlapeyre 7y ago
I think you could release a simplified version of biking directions that isn't perfect, but better than nothing: - For a limited number of cities, determine which streets the city lists as having separated bike lanes, painted bike lanes, or city-designated "bike friendly" streets. Mark them on the map appropriately in a different map overlay (or on the transit overlay) - Bicycle directions prioritize those streets. It's not perfect, but this would be enough for me to use the app.
- jschwartzi 7y ago
  Painted bike lanes are really unreliable, but otherwise that sounds like a great idea. Most of the painted bike lanes I see in suburban Washington are painted in some of the least safe bike routes. There's a ton of bike lanes that are just painted along major thoroughfares with actual top speeds of 40 or 45 miles per hour. They should really do it by speed limit and presence of features that obstruct car traffic. Streets that are a pain in the ass to drive on are the best streets to bike on. Even some of the Bike Routes in Seattle are on roads that I wouldn't feel safe biking on because traffic typically clocks at 10 or 15 MPH higher than the speed limit around the curves on the route.
MayeulC 7y ago
Well, I'm quite happy with Openstreetmap's directions for biking (I mostly use OSMand, but there are other apps/routers). They have elevation, private/public roads, road surface, bike lanes, etc, and routers can take it into account. Of course, that doesn't really take into account varying laws, but that might be reflected in the maps themselves (private/public places, bikes allowed/disallowed, etc). See also https://www.opencyclemap.org https://www.opencyclemap.org
- Lio 7y ago
  Openstreermap drives me crazy. They use the designations “town” and “city” as a way of ranking places in terms of importance. Here in the UK that designation is almost arbitrary. There are several large towns with greater population and navigational importance than surrounding smaller cities. All the commercial map providers, including Apple Maps, grok that. Only opensteetmap seems still rigidly to the town < city thing. Would be much better if they could use population instead.
  - Doctor_Fegg 7y ago
    OSM does record population, and many sites that use OSM data parse that information. I think you're overstating the importance of the demo stylesheet on openstreetmap.org, which really isn't significant: OSM is all about recording factual map data and making it freely available.
    - Lio 7y ago
      Not sure if stylwsheet has a different meaning in the context of OSM but it is what is shown when you zoom out that I’m objecting to. If the OSM project is just about data then it’s doing a great job. If it’s about a usable navigation experience too then it’s failing because in the UK it doesn’t take local politics into account when deciding what to display.
      - Doctor_Fegg 7y ago
        It’s 95% about data. FWIW OSM was founded and is still heavily influenced by the UK. As a UK user I like it that ceremonial cities are tagged and displayed as such. YMMV.
criddell 7y ago
> Maybe a town has a law saying you HAVE to bike on the road. I think that's usually the case. This page [1] says: > The law in most areas of the country require bicycles to follow the same rules of the road as other motor vehicles. In essence, riding your bike down the sidewalk is the same as if you hopped the curb and started rolling it in your car. [1] https://www.campfirecycling.com/blog/2008/07/09/top-5-rules-for-riding-on-the-sidewalk https://www.campfirecycling.com/blog/2008/07/09/top-5-rules-...
- penagwin 7y ago
  Not always though, for example here in Michigan [0]. At least around here some of the streets are NOT the kind you want to ride your bike on, and there's only a few pedestrians on the sidewalk (so it's not a big deal even if you stopped and walked your bike around them). > Bicycles may be ridden upon a sidewalk, but cyclists must yield the right-of-way to pedestrians and are required to give an audible signal before overtaking and passing a pedestrian. And to make it even more complicated: > Further, official traffic control devices or local ordinances may restrict bicycles on sidewalks in some areas. [0] https://michiganbikelaw.com/michigan-rules-of-the-road/ https://michiganbikelaw.com/michigan-rules-of-the-road/
  - SamBam 7y ago
    Doesn't seem that different. Basically, you're expected to be on the road and obey road rules, but you're allowed on the side walk if the local ordinance doesn't ban it and you give right-of-way and a wide berth to pedestrians. i.e. riding on the sidewalk is more of an exception, and is typically allowed for kids. This is pretty common, I believe. I looked up my local (Cambridge MA) laws and they say the same thing (and have a list of the sidewalks you can't bike on), and New York state looks the same. In the dot.ny.gov FAQs, they explicitly say that sidewalk riding is legal unless posted, but is specifically intended more for young children.
WorldMaker 7y ago
> Depending on your location, pedestrian traffic, streets, street traffic, etc. It might be best for you to be on the sidewalk. … Maybe a town has a law saying you HAVE to bike on the road. Depending on location indeed. The majority of US states still make it blanket illegal to bicycle on a sidewalk, codified into early highway laws. (It's also probable the last time those laws were effectively enforced was somewhere in the middle of the 20th Century.) There are states where it is illegal, but individual counties or cities (or strange in-betweens like townships) override their state laws and allow it. I don't know of any examples of the opposite where a state allows it, but individual towns forbid it, but I wouldn't be surprised.
- penagwin 7y ago
  I made a comment to a sibling with an example from Michigan. I won't copy paste the whole comment but Michigan allows biking on sidewalks but you have to yield to pedestrians. But individual towns may add their own restrictions. https://michiganbikelaw.com/michigan-rules-of-the-road/ https://michiganbikelaw.com/michigan-rules-of-the-road/

taylorlapeyre 7y ago

I think you could release a simplified version of biking directions that isn't perfect, but better than nothing: - For a limited number of cities, determine which streets the city lists as having separated bike lanes, painted bike lanes, or city-designated "bike friendly" streets. Mark them on the map appropriately in a different map overlay (or on the transit overlay) - Bicycle directions prioritize those streets. It's not perfect, but this would be enough for me to use the app.

jschwartzi 7y ago
Painted bike lanes are really unreliable, but otherwise that sounds like a great idea. Most of the painted bike lanes I see in suburban Washington are painted in some of the least safe bike routes. There's a ton of bike lanes that are just painted along major thoroughfares with actual top speeds of 40 or 45 miles per hour. They should really do it by speed limit and presence of features that obstruct car traffic. Streets that are a pain in the ass to drive on are the best streets to bike on. Even some of the Bike Routes in Seattle are on roads that I wouldn't feel safe biking on because traffic typically clocks at 10 or 15 MPH higher than the speed limit around the curves on the route.

MayeulC 7y ago

Well, I'm quite happy with Openstreetmap's directions for biking (I mostly use OSMand, but there are other apps/routers). They have elevation, private/public roads, road surface, bike lanes, etc, and routers can take it into account. Of course, that doesn't really take into account varying laws, but that might be reflected in the maps themselves (private/public places, bikes allowed/disallowed, etc). See also https://www.opencyclemap.org https://www.opencyclemap.org

Lio 7y ago
Openstreermap drives me crazy. They use the designations “town” and “city” as a way of ranking places in terms of importance. Here in the UK that designation is almost arbitrary. There are several large towns with greater population and navigational importance than surrounding smaller cities. All the commercial map providers, including Apple Maps, grok that. Only opensteetmap seems still rigidly to the town < city thing. Would be much better if they could use population instead.
- Doctor_Fegg 7y ago
  OSM does record population, and many sites that use OSM data parse that information. I think you're overstating the importance of the demo stylesheet on openstreetmap.org, which really isn't significant: OSM is all about recording factual map data and making it freely available.
  - Lio 7y ago
    Not sure if stylwsheet has a different meaning in the context of OSM but it is what is shown when you zoom out that I’m objecting to. If the OSM project is just about data then it’s doing a great job. If it’s about a usable navigation experience too then it’s failing because in the UK it doesn’t take local politics into account when deciding what to display.
    - Doctor_Fegg 7y ago
      It’s 95% about data. FWIW OSM was founded and is still heavily influenced by the UK. As a UK user I like it that ceremonial cities are tagged and displayed as such. YMMV.

criddell 7y ago

> Maybe a town has a law saying you HAVE to bike on the road. I think that's usually the case. This page [1] says: > The law in most areas of the country require bicycles to follow the same rules of the road as other motor vehicles. In essence, riding your bike down the sidewalk is the same as if you hopped the curb and started rolling it in your car. [1] https://www.campfirecycling.com/blog/2008/07/09/top-5-rules-for-riding-on-the-sidewalk https://www.campfirecycling.com/blog/2008/07/09/top-5-rules-...

penagwin 7y ago
Not always though, for example here in Michigan [0]. At least around here some of the streets are NOT the kind you want to ride your bike on, and there's only a few pedestrians on the sidewalk (so it's not a big deal even if you stopped and walked your bike around them). > Bicycles may be ridden upon a sidewalk, but cyclists must yield the right-of-way to pedestrians and are required to give an audible signal before overtaking and passing a pedestrian. And to make it even more complicated: > Further, official traffic control devices or local ordinances may restrict bicycles on sidewalks in some areas. [0] https://michiganbikelaw.com/michigan-rules-of-the-road/ https://michiganbikelaw.com/michigan-rules-of-the-road/
- SamBam 7y ago
  Doesn't seem that different. Basically, you're expected to be on the road and obey road rules, but you're allowed on the side walk if the local ordinance doesn't ban it and you give right-of-way and a wide berth to pedestrians. i.e. riding on the sidewalk is more of an exception, and is typically allowed for kids. This is pretty common, I believe. I looked up my local (Cambridge MA) laws and they say the same thing (and have a list of the sidewalks you can't bike on), and New York state looks the same. In the dot.ny.gov FAQs, they explicitly say that sidewalk riding is legal unless posted, but is specifically intended more for young children.

WorldMaker 7y ago

> Depending on your location, pedestrian traffic, streets, street traffic, etc. It might be best for you to be on the sidewalk. … Maybe a town has a law saying you HAVE to bike on the road. Depending on location indeed. The majority of US states still make it blanket illegal to bicycle on a sidewalk, codified into early highway laws. (It's also probable the last time those laws were effectively enforced was somewhere in the middle of the 20th Century.) There are states where it is illegal, but individual counties or cities (or strange in-betweens like townships) override their state laws and allow it. I don't know of any examples of the opposite where a state allows it, but individual towns forbid it, but I wouldn't be surprised.

penagwin 7y ago
I made a comment to a sibling with an example from Michigan. I won't copy paste the whole comment but Michigan allows biking on sidewalks but you have to yield to pedestrians. But individual towns may add their own restrictions. https://michiganbikelaw.com/michigan-rules-of-the-road/ https://michiganbikelaw.com/michigan-rules-of-the-road/