6 ms·

I do believe that we're living in two political dimensions - dimension A, and dimension B. (This is purely academic distinction - just for illustrative purposes

I do believe that we're living in two political dimensions - dimension A, and dimension B. (This is purely academic distinction - just for illustrative purposes.) I was just in Kansas, and all I saw were people that would benefit massively from Liberal/Democratic policies, and yet vote against their best interest Every. Single. Time. Wrapping blue collar and middle class voters in a blanket of patriotism, near-worship of the military class and first responders, and positioning anything else as anti-American is very powerful.

habeebtc 7y ago
And in fact, expressing criticisms of the current administration (without mentioning Democrats or their policies in any way), no matter how minor, will get your post deleted, and sometimes your account banned on many right-leaning parts of the internet. An exercise I undertake to understand the current state of the Republican party is to watch the comment threads on Breitbart (not post, just lurk). Stories about when Trump proposes any amount of gun control will see many, many posts expressing betrayal and outrage--and you can watch them disappear in realtime.
- grimjack00 7y ago
  This isn't unique to right-leaning sites. Expressing support in the wrong (right?) place will get posts deleted and accounts locked.
3fe9a03ccd14ca5 7y ago
> I was just in Kansas, and all I saw were people that would benefit massively from Liberal/Democratic policies, and yet vote against their best interest Every. Single. Time. I think this was a true statement a decade ago, but political ideologies have shifted dramatically within the parties. For one example, look at who was fighting against illegal immigration in order to protect blue-collar union jobs in 2005 versus now.
Clent 7y ago
Guns and abortion. They've chosen their hill to die on. The rest of it is pageantry.
- homonculus1 7y ago
  These exact words apply reflexively to the left, you know. It absolutely stuns me that the left is able to correctly identify the things that empirically matter most to middle America based on their voting behavior, then campaigns on the opposite of that and still has the nerve to say they're "voting against their own interest". The dehumanizing arrogance this kind of rhetoric betrays is profoundly disturbing and everyone who finds themselves thinking this way needs to stop immediately and do some soul searching. Half the country is not too stupid to discover their own values and preferences, and you are not the enlightened shepherd they need to guide them against their own will.
  - hcknwscommenter 7y ago
    Your comment perfectly exemplifies why the blue collar vote in favor of the GOP is so mystifying. 64% of Americans support stricter gun laws, while 29% oppose them. And yet, many of those 64% vote GOP because they are convinced the DEM are going to confiscate/ban/etc.. That kind of noise comes exclusively from the GOP themselves. Believe me, some jerk signed me up for NRA e-mails once. It is a constant barrage (even today) that OBUMER is gonna take yer guns and herd you into a FEMA camp and DONATE NOW!! In reality, actual DEM proposed legislation places controls on certain features that increase likelihood of successful mass-killing (fully auto, bump stocks, very high capacity mags) and increases background checks. Regarding abortion, the general consensus among DEMs is that abortion should be legal, safe, and rare. Rare to be obtained by increasing the social safety net for having a kid is not such a profoundly negative economic consequence. I find it difficult to understand how such positions could be considered "opposite" of "things that empirically matter most to middle America"
    - abstractbarista 7y ago
      "they are convinced the DEM are going to confiscate/ban/etc" This is a very legitimate and real fear for many. Remember Beto? "Hell yes we're going to take your AR-15's!" That was met with overwhelming cheer and praise at the debate. Clearly many Democrats are not that vigorous, but you get the point...
salawat 7y ago
>I was just in Kansas, and all I saw were people that would benefit massively from Liberal/Democratic policies, and yet vote against their best interest Every. Single. Time. It's easy to feel that way if you don't understand what is really important to that particular vein of person. Adversity can be lived and reckoned with as long as there is safety, and overarching stability. People want to be part of something they can be proud of, and that they overcome difficult circumstances makes it all the sweeter. Most importantly though, people just want to be not-interfered with. When your ostensibly Liberal party has some fiscally attractive ideas, but undermines the very traditional "heart and soul" of the overarching culture, you're going to have a very hard sell. Especially when the other party can sit back and say, "If not for us, they'd have destroyed the American dream, and turned it into a government operated nightmare." Which despite many admirable liberal causes, from the behavior of the political machine elsewhere finds a sizable portion of the populations agreeing with the other side. Give up on the moral crusade on firearms, get off the Wall Street teat, refocus efforts on organizing and reempowering labor, actually focus on fiscal stability by putting entitlements on a back burner and revamp some of the more fundamental ways our economy is malfunctioning. Use the anti-trust hammer, hold large regional monopolies accountable and make it hurt when they don't deliver. Do something to thwart the problematic forms of financial engineering (private equity abuses, short-term gains over long-term stability, predatory financial products), and for the love of God, get healthcare sorted, and simplify/deantagonize the mechanics of taxation. Shift funding to Research and Education, simplify and raise awareness of ways of civic participation, and maybe consider whether or not some environmental issues can be tackled by the of establishment of Public Works programs. If anything has stood out to me about the difference between my current generation, and my grandparent's it is that nowadays a civicly minded individual would be hard pressed to be able to actually make a living improving their community. Funding is trapped in a Market driven by chasing the latest international money making hype scheme rather than actually getting physical labor/goods production done. The service/rent seeking/consumerist paradigm is death and stagnation incarnate. No one is enabled by forced dependence on someone else. At least, that seems to be the vibe I've picked up on from the Midwest states I've frequented... Which I'll be the first to admit isn't that extensive.
- gentle 7y ago
blaser-waffle 7y ago
The book is "What's The Matter With Kansas" and it came out in 2004. Old hat at this point, e.g. Koch brothers, Fox News, Identity Politics, etc. The real story is why the left isn't able to pull them back in, or reach out. There is no question that the Right owns that block and how they keep them, the actual question is what does the left do to change that? Maybe that means taking positions that're not crazy about, or maybe that just means people need to move en masse out of their blue enclaves.
njarboe 7y ago
The upper-middle class people that mostly run the Democratic party and vote progressive are also voting against "their best interest". How do you define interest? Many people don't think that getting more resources from the government, even if they are struggling financially, is in "their best interest". Part of the rejection of the Liberal/Democratic policies is that the "elites" think they know peoples' "best interest" better than the people themselves. Not very democratic, really.

habeebtc 7y ago

And in fact, expressing criticisms of the current administration (without mentioning Democrats or their policies in any way), no matter how minor, will get your post deleted, and sometimes your account banned on many right-leaning parts of the internet. An exercise I undertake to understand the current state of the Republican party is to watch the comment threads on Breitbart (not post, just lurk). Stories about when Trump proposes any amount of gun control will see many, many posts expressing betrayal and outrage--and you can watch them disappear in realtime.

grimjack00 7y ago
This isn't unique to right-leaning sites. Expressing support in the wrong (right?) place will get posts deleted and accounts locked.

3fe9a03ccd14ca5 7y ago

> I was just in Kansas, and all I saw were people that would benefit massively from Liberal/Democratic policies, and yet vote against their best interest Every. Single. Time. I think this was a true statement a decade ago, but political ideologies have shifted dramatically within the parties. For one example, look at who was fighting against illegal immigration in order to protect blue-collar union jobs in 2005 versus now.

Clent 7y ago

Guns and abortion. They've chosen their hill to die on. The rest of it is pageantry.

homonculus1 7y ago
These exact words apply reflexively to the left, you know. It absolutely stuns me that the left is able to correctly identify the things that empirically matter most to middle America based on their voting behavior, then campaigns on the opposite of that and still has the nerve to say they're "voting against their own interest". The dehumanizing arrogance this kind of rhetoric betrays is profoundly disturbing and everyone who finds themselves thinking this way needs to stop immediately and do some soul searching. Half the country is not too stupid to discover their own values and preferences, and you are not the enlightened shepherd they need to guide them against their own will.
- hcknwscommenter 7y ago
  Your comment perfectly exemplifies why the blue collar vote in favor of the GOP is so mystifying. 64% of Americans support stricter gun laws, while 29% oppose them. And yet, many of those 64% vote GOP because they are convinced the DEM are going to confiscate/ban/etc.. That kind of noise comes exclusively from the GOP themselves. Believe me, some jerk signed me up for NRA e-mails once. It is a constant barrage (even today) that OBUMER is gonna take yer guns and herd you into a FEMA camp and DONATE NOW!! In reality, actual DEM proposed legislation places controls on certain features that increase likelihood of successful mass-killing (fully auto, bump stocks, very high capacity mags) and increases background checks. Regarding abortion, the general consensus among DEMs is that abortion should be legal, safe, and rare. Rare to be obtained by increasing the social safety net for having a kid is not such a profoundly negative economic consequence. I find it difficult to understand how such positions could be considered "opposite" of "things that empirically matter most to middle America"
  - abstractbarista 7y ago
    "they are convinced the DEM are going to confiscate/ban/etc" This is a very legitimate and real fear for many. Remember Beto? "Hell yes we're going to take your AR-15's!" That was met with overwhelming cheer and praise at the debate. Clearly many Democrats are not that vigorous, but you get the point...

salawat 7y ago

>I was just in Kansas, and all I saw were people that would benefit massively from Liberal/Democratic policies, and yet vote against their best interest Every. Single. Time. It's easy to feel that way if you don't understand what is really important to that particular vein of person. Adversity can be lived and reckoned with as long as there is safety, and overarching stability. People want to be part of something they can be proud of, and that they overcome difficult circumstances makes it all the sweeter. Most importantly though, people just want to be not-interfered with. When your ostensibly Liberal party has some fiscally attractive ideas, but undermines the very traditional "heart and soul" of the overarching culture, you're going to have a very hard sell. Especially when the other party can sit back and say, "If not for us, they'd have destroyed the American dream, and turned it into a government operated nightmare." Which despite many admirable liberal causes, from the behavior of the political machine elsewhere finds a sizable portion of the populations agreeing with the other side. Give up on the moral crusade on firearms, get off the Wall Street teat, refocus efforts on organizing and reempowering labor, actually focus on fiscal stability by putting entitlements on a back burner and revamp some of the more fundamental ways our economy is malfunctioning. Use the anti-trust hammer, hold large regional monopolies accountable and make it hurt when they don't deliver. Do something to thwart the problematic forms of financial engineering (private equity abuses, short-term gains over long-term stability, predatory financial products), and for the love of God, get healthcare sorted, and simplify/deantagonize the mechanics of taxation. Shift funding to Research and Education, simplify and raise awareness of ways of civic participation, and maybe consider whether or not some environmental issues can be tackled by the of establishment of Public Works programs. If anything has stood out to me about the difference between my current generation, and my grandparent's it is that nowadays a civicly minded individual would be hard pressed to be able to actually make a living improving their community. Funding is trapped in a Market driven by chasing the latest international money making hype scheme rather than actually getting physical labor/goods production done. The service/rent seeking/consumerist paradigm is death and stagnation incarnate. No one is enabled by forced dependence on someone else. At least, that seems to be the vibe I've picked up on from the Midwest states I've frequented... Which I'll be the first to admit isn't that extensive.

gentle 7y ago

blaser-waffle 7y ago

The book is "What's The Matter With Kansas" and it came out in 2004. Old hat at this point, e.g. Koch brothers, Fox News, Identity Politics, etc. The real story is why the left isn't able to pull them back in, or reach out. There is no question that the Right owns that block and how they keep them, the actual question is what does the left do to change that? Maybe that means taking positions that're not crazy about, or maybe that just means people need to move en masse out of their blue enclaves.

njarboe 7y ago

The upper-middle class people that mostly run the Democratic party and vote progressive are also voting against "their best interest". How do you define interest? Many people don't think that getting more resources from the government, even if they are struggling financially, is in "their best interest". Part of the rejection of the Liberal/Democratic policies is that the "elites" think they know peoples' "best interest" better than the people themselves. Not very democratic, really.