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Something I've always wondered... In my accent (I'm British, with a classic 'semi-posh'[1] accent) and I say 'Marin-err' however when reading the poem, it see

Something I've always wondered... In my accent (I'm British, with a classic 'semi-posh'[1] accent) and I say 'Marin-err' however when reading the poem, it seems to me that it supposed to be 'Marin-ear' so as to rhyme with 'hear'. Back in 19th century, did people pronounce it differently, or is Coleridge bending the pronunciation to force the rhyme? --- [1] Home Counties, for you other brits.

ranko 7y ago
Interesting question - I don't think that there's a current British accent that would rhyme those two words, and 1834 seems too late for the Great Vowel Shift to have made any difference between then and now. Not every rhyme in the poem is a full (aka "perfect") rhyme; there are a few half rhymes (cold/emerald, thus/albatross). So there's at least an argument that Coleridge didn't intend a full rhyme here.
_n_b_ 7y ago
Two Samuel Johnson-based dictionaries from 1828 give 'mariner' basically the modern pronunciation. See https://books.google.com/books?id=z3kKAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA451#v=onepage&q&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=z3kKAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA451#v=on... and https://books.google.com/books?id=EXEUPL_Jv2MC&lpg=PA61&ots=ZucmU-gmML&dq=johnson%20walker%20dictionary%20pronunciation%20guide%20accent%20marks&pg=RA30-PA5#v=onepage&q&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=EXEUPL_Jv2MC&lpg=PA61&ots=...
yesenadam 7y ago
The notes in an 1885 edition say "As printed the [hear/Mariner] rhyme is defective. In the original edition the spelling is Marinere wherever the word occurs."[0] An archaism I suppose, like eftsoons etc. And about How loudly his sweet voice he rears! He loves to talk with marineres That come from a far countree. it says "In the early editions this is always spelt, as here, with an added e ; when the poem was revised the e was dropped, except in this place, where it is retained on account of the rhyme." And the -ear sound is better for rhyming! e.g. Alas! (thought I, and my heart beat loud) How fast she nears and nears! Are those her sails that glance in the Sun, Like restless gossameres? Also, re the there/are/prayer rhyme What loud uproar bursts from that door! The wedding-guests are there: But in the garden-bower the bride And bride-maids singing are: And hark the little vesper bell, Which biddeth me to prayer! "A great many English-speaking people incorrectly pronounce 'are' like 'air,' and [this rhyme], viewed in connection with the one before us, [Sometimes all little birds that are, How they seemed to fill the sea and air] would seem to indicate that this was Coleridge's pronunciation." Finally, "The pronunciation of [Coleridge] is indicated by Coleridge himself in the following couplet : Could you stand upon Skiddaw, you would not from its whole ridge See a man who so loves you as your fond S. T. Coleridge." [0] https://archive.org/stream/coleridgesancient00cole/coleridgesancient00cole_djvu.txt https://archive.org/stream/coleridgesancient00cole/coleridge...
- Jaruzel 7y ago
  A good explanation, thank you!
- StrictDabbler 7y ago
  These are very useful notes. It doesn't look like they address this one: FIRST VOICE But why drives on that ship so fast, Without or wave or wind?' SECOND VOICE 'The air is cut away before, And closes from behind. When I was memorizing this poem with my friends in high-school this was a high point. All as one, we'd say "And closes from BEE-HIHND," rhyming it with "wind" and then breaking up in gales of laughter.
  - yesenadam 7y ago
    Well, the lines With sloping masts and dipping prow, As who pursued with yell and blow have the notes "prow, the Classical equivalent of the Teutonic bow, rimes with blow only to the eye. Such are called printers' rhymes." Did you manage to memorize it?? It's long! I chose Kubla Khan, more sensibly. About the spelling rime he says "Rime. — This word has during the last three centuries been usually but improperly spelt rhyme, probably through confusion with rhythm" which seems right e.g. https://www.etymonline.com/word/rhyme https://www.etymonline.com/word/rhyme
OJFord 7y ago
I'd have said 'hear' is more variable than 'mariner' - if you imagine for example Welsh, RP, and East end accents. Having said that, 'Rhod Gilbert Welsh' (in my head anyway) isn't that far off rhyming with 'mariner' itself.
AdmiralAsshat 7y ago
Keep in mind that poetry employs "slant rhymes" all the time.[0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_and_imperfect_rhymes#Imperfect_rhyme https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_and_imperfect_rhymes#I...

ranko 7y ago

Interesting question - I don't think that there's a current British accent that would rhyme those two words, and 1834 seems too late for the Great Vowel Shift to have made any difference between then and now. Not every rhyme in the poem is a full (aka "perfect") rhyme; there are a few half rhymes (cold/emerald, thus/albatross). So there's at least an argument that Coleridge didn't intend a full rhyme here.

_n_b_ 7y ago

Two Samuel Johnson-based dictionaries from 1828 give 'mariner' basically the modern pronunciation. See https://books.google.com/books?id=z3kKAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA451#v=onepage&q&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=z3kKAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA451#v=on... and https://books.google.com/books?id=EXEUPL_Jv2MC&lpg=PA61&ots=ZucmU-gmML&dq=johnson%20walker%20dictionary%20pronunciation%20guide%20accent%20marks&pg=RA30-PA5#v=onepage&q&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=EXEUPL_Jv2MC&lpg=PA61&ots=...

yesenadam 7y ago

The notes in an 1885 edition say "As printed the [hear/Mariner] rhyme is defective. In the original edition the spelling is Marinere wherever the word occurs."[0] An archaism I suppose, like eftsoons etc. And about How loudly his sweet voice he rears! He loves to talk with marineres That come from a far countree. it says "In the early editions this is always spelt, as here, with an added e ; when the poem was revised the e was dropped, except in this place, where it is retained on account of the rhyme." And the -ear sound is better for rhyming! e.g. Alas! (thought I, and my heart beat loud) How fast she nears and nears! Are those her sails that glance in the Sun, Like restless gossameres? Also, re the there/are/prayer rhyme What loud uproar bursts from that door! The wedding-guests are there: But in the garden-bower the bride And bride-maids singing are: And hark the little vesper bell, Which biddeth me to prayer! "A great many English-speaking people incorrectly pronounce 'are' like 'air,' and [this rhyme], viewed in connection with the one before us, [Sometimes all little birds that are, How they seemed to fill the sea and air] would seem to indicate that this was Coleridge's pronunciation." Finally, "The pronunciation of [Coleridge] is indicated by Coleridge himself in the following couplet : Could you stand upon Skiddaw, you would not from its whole ridge See a man who so loves you as your fond S. T. Coleridge." [0] https://archive.org/stream/coleridgesancient00cole/coleridgesancient00cole_djvu.txt https://archive.org/stream/coleridgesancient00cole/coleridge...

Jaruzel 7y ago
A good explanation, thank you!
StrictDabbler 7y ago
These are very useful notes. It doesn't look like they address this one: FIRST VOICE But why drives on that ship so fast, Without or wave or wind?' SECOND VOICE 'The air is cut away before, And closes from behind. When I was memorizing this poem with my friends in high-school this was a high point. All as one, we'd say "And closes from BEE-HIHND," rhyming it with "wind" and then breaking up in gales of laughter.
- yesenadam 7y ago
  Well, the lines With sloping masts and dipping prow, As who pursued with yell and blow have the notes "prow, the Classical equivalent of the Teutonic bow, rimes with blow only to the eye. Such are called printers' rhymes." Did you manage to memorize it?? It's long! I chose Kubla Khan, more sensibly. About the spelling rime he says "Rime. — This word has during the last three centuries been usually but improperly spelt rhyme, probably through confusion with rhythm" which seems right e.g. https://www.etymonline.com/word/rhyme https://www.etymonline.com/word/rhyme

OJFord 7y ago

I'd have said 'hear' is more variable than 'mariner' - if you imagine for example Welsh, RP, and East end accents. Having said that, 'Rhod Gilbert Welsh' (in my head anyway) isn't that far off rhyming with 'mariner' itself.

AdmiralAsshat 7y ago

Keep in mind that poetry employs "slant rhymes" all the time.[0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_and_imperfect_rhymes#Imperfect_rhyme https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_and_imperfect_rhymes#I...