5 ms·

Just out of curiosity, I tried to 'ground' those figures to median income to compare against what's happened in the past few years. Per the US Census[1], media

Just out of curiosity, I tried to 'ground' those figures to median income to compare against what's happened in the past few years. Per the US Census[1], median income in 1973 was $10,500, so the price of your parents' home increased by 3x median household income. Looking at a completely unremarkable house in the sunset of SF on Zillow[2]. It sold for $1.725M in Nov of 2019 after selling for $997k in June of 2014. Household income today is right around $60k, so an increase of more like 12x median household income in 5 years. Just madness. (And yes, I know that the median household income in SF is higher than the nationwide, but that'd apply in the past too.) [1] - https://www2.census.gov/prod2/popscan/p60-096.pdf https://www2.census.gov/prod2/popscan/p60-096.pdf [2] - https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/610-Rivera-St-San-Francisco-CA-94116/15118110_zpid/ https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/610-Rivera-St-San-Francis...

cjhopman 7y ago
That's a bad example, that home was completely remodeled between the two sales.
- mikeyouse 7y ago
  Fair to a point, it was merely a random click on a recently sold property, but it was a $20,000 kitchen remodel (permit 201608084481), a $7,000 bathroom remodel (permit 201408113562) and a new roof for $7,500. So not sure if it's really a bad example when 5 years + $35,000 in investment adds over $700k in value to a home. You can review the permits here: https://dbiweb.sfgov.org/dbipts/default.aspx?page=PermitType&SearchBy=PermitNo https://dbiweb.sfgov.org/dbipts/default.aspx?page=PermitType...
  - sologoub 7y ago
    Those are probably tax values. Actual out of pocket is likely a lot more - SF area has a huge shortage of construction labor and prices are really high, with completion rates low.
  - cjhopman 7y ago
    That's really cool thanks, didn't realize you could just look up the permits like that. I'm not sure what those values in the permits really mean, but they can't be the total costs. Hell, the kitchen remodel probably has $20,000 just in appliances. According to https://blog.housemanager.calstate.aaa.com/blog/how-much-will-bay-area-home-renovation-cost https://blog.housemanager.calstate.aaa.com/blog/how-much-wil..., the price for a mid-range kitchen remodel in SF is ~$83,000, $65,000 for the bathroom and $30,000 for an average roof replacement. Looking at the pictures of the kitchen (https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/610-Rivera-St-San-Francisco-CA-94116/15118110_zpid/?mmlb=g,20 https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/610-Rivera-St-San-Francis...) and bathroom (https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/610-Rivera-St-San-Francisco-CA-94116/15118110_zpid/?mmlb=g,40 https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/610-Rivera-St-San-Francis...) those numbers seem like they're probably closer than the permit numbers. It looks like they also remodeled the half-bath as it matches the remodeled master. It's probably more like $100-150k in renovations.
    - mikeyouse 7y ago
      Yeah the city sets prices based on the square footage being renovated and: > "The valuation data is based on information provided by a variety of sources, including without limitation, local contractors, design professionals, cost estimators or nationally published construction cost data books or websites." https://sfdbi.org/sites/default/files/Cost%20Schedule_0.pdf https://sfdbi.org/sites/default/files/Cost%20Schedule_0.pdf So it looks like SF figures $98/sq ft. + $10,561 for the kitchen remodel and $8/sq ft. for reroofing, etc. In either case, even if it did cost 3-4x that permit amount, we'd be talking about 10x the median household income instead of 12x over those 5 years. Still just a crazy situation.

cjhopman 7y ago

That's a bad example, that home was completely remodeled between the two sales.

mikeyouse 7y ago
Fair to a point, it was merely a random click on a recently sold property, but it was a $20,000 kitchen remodel (permit 201608084481), a $7,000 bathroom remodel (permit 201408113562) and a new roof for $7,500. So not sure if it's really a bad example when 5 years + $35,000 in investment adds over $700k in value to a home. You can review the permits here: https://dbiweb.sfgov.org/dbipts/default.aspx?page=PermitType&SearchBy=PermitNo https://dbiweb.sfgov.org/dbipts/default.aspx?page=PermitType...
- sologoub 7y ago
  Those are probably tax values. Actual out of pocket is likely a lot more - SF area has a huge shortage of construction labor and prices are really high, with completion rates low.
- cjhopman 7y ago
  That's really cool thanks, didn't realize you could just look up the permits like that. I'm not sure what those values in the permits really mean, but they can't be the total costs. Hell, the kitchen remodel probably has $20,000 just in appliances. According to https://blog.housemanager.calstate.aaa.com/blog/how-much-will-bay-area-home-renovation-cost https://blog.housemanager.calstate.aaa.com/blog/how-much-wil..., the price for a mid-range kitchen remodel in SF is ~$83,000, $65,000 for the bathroom and $30,000 for an average roof replacement. Looking at the pictures of the kitchen (https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/610-Rivera-St-San-Francisco-CA-94116/15118110_zpid/?mmlb=g,20 https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/610-Rivera-St-San-Francis...) and bathroom (https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/610-Rivera-St-San-Francisco-CA-94116/15118110_zpid/?mmlb=g,40 https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/610-Rivera-St-San-Francis...) those numbers seem like they're probably closer than the permit numbers. It looks like they also remodeled the half-bath as it matches the remodeled master. It's probably more like $100-150k in renovations.
  - mikeyouse 7y ago
    Yeah the city sets prices based on the square footage being renovated and: > "The valuation data is based on information provided by a variety of sources, including without limitation, local contractors, design professionals, cost estimators or nationally published construction cost data books or websites." https://sfdbi.org/sites/default/files/Cost%20Schedule_0.pdf https://sfdbi.org/sites/default/files/Cost%20Schedule_0.pdf So it looks like SF figures $98/sq ft. + $10,561 for the kitchen remodel and $8/sq ft. for reroofing, etc. In either case, even if it did cost 3-4x that permit amount, we'd be talking about 10x the median household income instead of 12x over those 5 years. Still just a crazy situation.