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I do have an anxiety disorder so I absolutely get this. A big breakthrough for me through therapy was working on my self worth and realizing that I have inheren

by jsonne 7y ago

I do have an anxiety disorder so I absolutely get this. A big breakthrough for me through therapy was working on my self worth and realizing that I have inherent value. I can't speak for everyone but I was raised to believe that my worth was really only the sum of my actions in a very utilitarian sort of way rather than a deontological way. I suspect a lot of other young men in my generation were instilled with very similar values. If you know that you existing just as you are is valuable regardless then the social anxiety around not knowing something or being "perfect" tends to melt away (or it at least helps). Perfectionism is a lot more insidious than most folks realize. That said when you get to the place where you can get past that it's quite liberating.

burntoutfire 7y ago
> I can't speak for everyone but I was raised to believe that my worth was really only the sum of my actions in a very utilitarian sort of way rather than a deontological way. I suspect a lot of other young men in my generation were instilled with very similar values. I feel for you, what a horrible philosophy to be raised under.
- gonational 7y ago
  I think your username adequately describes the state of your generation (guessing you are about 30, based on your thinking); the smoldering remnants of a great fire that once was. The idea that, somehow, your actions do not define your value is so fundamentally broken that it isn’t found elsewhere in nature. There isn’t a single creature in nature that gets to be valuable in the eyes of the very objective and unrelenting judge that is evolution. We are fortunate that the younger generation, filled with potential, is almost here to replace the vast void.
  - burntoutfire 7y ago
    > he idea that, somehow, your actions do not define your value is so fundamentally broken ? I never said that.
- pathseeker 7y ago
  It's even worse to be raised under a philosophy that leads you to believe you are living a good life just because you are following good rules that lead to bad outcomes. It's a super selfish approach to living because it conveniently lets you discard consequences.
M5x7wI3CmbEem10 7y ago
why are you inherently valuable? does that mean my stupid or malicious acts are also valuable? if I have as many kids as possible, am I creating value with each one?
- type0 7y ago
  > why are you inherently valuable? At least it's inherently valuable to feel that way, a sense of worth in yourself and others. > does that mean my stupid or malicious acts are also valuable? Even if you do something criminally stupid there's value for people working in prison sector /s > if I have as many kids as possible, am I creating value with each one? Plenty of value for your genes to maximize them in evolutionary terms
- binarypaean 7y ago
  I'll bite, since you could be in a really nihilistic or even self-hating space asking an earnest question. _Being_ a person is inherently valuable, _making more people_ is not necessarily an inherent value. This inherent value is from the internalized perspective of the person doing the existing. The external recognition of this value is in - at minimum - recognition of inalienable human rights, as conveyed by documents such as the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Perhaps I am unfairly reading your questions above, but notice they seem to carry an implicit (to me) or (to you) at the end of each one. The idea of inalienable rights and corresponding inherent human value is that people do not have justify their worth (to me) or (to you). This doesn't people can't or shouldn't strive to provide interpersonal, tangible or social goods beyond their inherent human value. It means that the encouraged interpretation of "existential original sin" is "As I develop as a person, I perceive more I could have done or could do better." BUT NOT "I started out worthless and must continually prove my value to person or group X until I earn value."
- alexashka 7y ago
  It's a matter of shifting the definition of valuable from something generic others have told you, to something personal that works for you. Believing yourself to be inherently capable of living a life you find worth living is how you pull yourself up by your bootstraps.
munificent 7y ago
Are you me? Are you seeing my therapist too? :) Yes, this is exactly the experience I'm going through right now. My "I'm only as good as what I do" mindset got me pretty far and does materially help me have a successful career which in turn helps me take care of my family well. But right around mid-life crisis time, many of those low-self-worth chickens came home to roost. Parenting meant I no longer had enough free time to constantly make and do things to pump up my self-worth through actions. My self-esteem dropped and I took that resentment out on my wife and kids. Thanks to a very good therapist, I'm making a lot of progress now. > Perfectionism is a lot more insidious than most folks realize. Like most personality attributes I think it has functional and disfunctional characteristics. My perfectionism helps me be a hard worker and create things that help other people like books and open source stuff. It provides real value to my life and the lives of others. But it also makes me feel like what I do is never enough and by extension I an never enough. And it makes it very hard for me to explore new activities because I dislike the feeling of not being good at something. Figuring out how to manage the unhealthy aspects while still retaining some of the healthy parts is a challenge.

by jsonne 7y ago

burntoutfire 7y ago

> I can't speak for everyone but I was raised to believe that my worth was really only the sum of my actions in a very utilitarian sort of way rather than a deontological way. I suspect a lot of other young men in my generation were instilled with very similar values. I feel for you, what a horrible philosophy to be raised under.

gonational 7y ago
I think your username adequately describes the state of your generation (guessing you are about 30, based on your thinking); the smoldering remnants of a great fire that once was. The idea that, somehow, your actions do not define your value is so fundamentally broken that it isn’t found elsewhere in nature. There isn’t a single creature in nature that gets to be valuable in the eyes of the very objective and unrelenting judge that is evolution. We are fortunate that the younger generation, filled with potential, is almost here to replace the vast void.
- burntoutfire 7y ago
  > he idea that, somehow, your actions do not define your value is so fundamentally broken ? I never said that.
pathseeker 7y ago
It's even worse to be raised under a philosophy that leads you to believe you are living a good life just because you are following good rules that lead to bad outcomes. It's a super selfish approach to living because it conveniently lets you discard consequences.

M5x7wI3CmbEem10 7y ago

why are you inherently valuable? does that mean my stupid or malicious acts are also valuable? if I have as many kids as possible, am I creating value with each one?

type0 7y ago
> why are you inherently valuable? At least it's inherently valuable to feel that way, a sense of worth in yourself and others. > does that mean my stupid or malicious acts are also valuable? Even if you do something criminally stupid there's value for people working in prison sector /s > if I have as many kids as possible, am I creating value with each one? Plenty of value for your genes to maximize them in evolutionary terms
binarypaean 7y ago
I'll bite, since you could be in a really nihilistic or even self-hating space asking an earnest question. _Being_ a person is inherently valuable, _making more people_ is not necessarily an inherent value. This inherent value is from the internalized perspective of the person doing the existing. The external recognition of this value is in - at minimum - recognition of inalienable human rights, as conveyed by documents such as the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Perhaps I am unfairly reading your questions above, but notice they seem to carry an implicit (to me) or (to you) at the end of each one. The idea of inalienable rights and corresponding inherent human value is that people do not have justify their worth (to me) or (to you). This doesn't people can't or shouldn't strive to provide interpersonal, tangible or social goods beyond their inherent human value. It means that the encouraged interpretation of "existential original sin" is "As I develop as a person, I perceive more I could have done or could do better." BUT NOT "I started out worthless and must continually prove my value to person or group X until I earn value."
alexashka 7y ago
It's a matter of shifting the definition of valuable from something generic others have told you, to something personal that works for you. Believing yourself to be inherently capable of living a life you find worth living is how you pull yourself up by your bootstraps.

munificent 7y ago

Are you me? Are you seeing my therapist too? :) Yes, this is exactly the experience I'm going through right now. My "I'm only as good as what I do" mindset got me pretty far and does materially help me have a successful career which in turn helps me take care of my family well. But right around mid-life crisis time, many of those low-self-worth chickens came home to roost. Parenting meant I no longer had enough free time to constantly make and do things to pump up my self-worth through actions. My self-esteem dropped and I took that resentment out on my wife and kids. Thanks to a very good therapist, I'm making a lot of progress now. > Perfectionism is a lot more insidious than most folks realize. Like most personality attributes I think it has functional and disfunctional characteristics. My perfectionism helps me be a hard worker and create things that help other people like books and open source stuff. It provides real value to my life and the lives of others. But it also makes me feel like what I do is never enough and by extension I an never enough. And it makes it very hard for me to explore new activities because I dislike the feeling of not being good at something. Figuring out how to manage the unhealthy aspects while still retaining some of the healthy parts is a challenge.