7 ms·

One of the selling points for Kindle is that if you switch devices partway through (e.g. switch from reading on your tablet to reading on your phone, or switch

by Kuiper 7y ago

One of the selling points for Kindle is that if you switch devices partway through (e.g. switch from reading on your tablet to reading on your phone, or switch from reading the ebook to listening to the audiobook in your car), it remembers what page you're on, so you can resume exactly where you left off. Amazon actively touts this "Whispersync" feature in their marketing. (From the Kindle product page: "With Whispersync, switch from Kindle to the Kindle app without losing your place (requires Wi-Fi).") One would presume that Amazon achieves this by tracking whenever readers tap the screen to advance to the next page. (And having a timestamp for that tap matters for resolving merge conflicts.) Also worth noting that in the case of Kindle Unlimited (Amazon's "Netflix for ebooks" program), authors get paid per page read. (If a person reads the first 5 pages of your book and drops it, the author gets paid less than if they read the whole thing.) One of the things that Amazon has to deal with is fraud prevention, to detect when authors are finding ways to game metrics: https://techcrunch.com/2018/06/11/notorious-kindle-unlimited-abuser-has-been-booted-from-the-bookstore/ https://techcrunch.com/2018/06/11/notorious-kindle-unlimited...

rtkwe 7y ago
There's a less invasive way to do that though by storing the latest location for each device. You don't need to store each and every page turn for the page sync feature.
- jbob2000 7y ago
  Then the next news article will read "Amazon stores the locations of where you are in your ebooks!". You can't have your cake and eat it too, amazon needs to store something to make this feature work.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
    - Karunamon 7y ago
      It's the same thing with the locations, since your "page" is entirely dependent on your screen size and font setting. The end of a given page could reference no less than 40 different positions in the book (8 possible font sizes, 5 different screen sizes on all available kindles).
      - Godel_unicode 7y ago
        Isn't it much more than that given iOS split screen support? I thought Kindle text was addressed by word break?
      - rtkwe 7y ago
        It's way more than that because the page breaks will also change based on screen size including apps on other devices. We aren't seeing the full data here so I bet one of the columns here is currentLocation using the word break location (which I've heard is how Loc XXX is calculated for kindle books) instead of a page number.
  - wizzwizz4 7y ago
    “Amazon stores the locations of where you are in your ebooks!” is not newsworthy.
- bduerst 7y ago
  Correct me if I'm wrong, isn't that how whispersync works now?
- tqi 7y ago
  How is "tapped on page 11" different from "is on page 12"?
  - alpaca128 7y ago
    90k rows of "tapped on page X" is definitely different from "is on page 12 in book Y" with exactly one entry per book.
    - tqi 7y ago
      "Is on page 12 in book Y" at what time? If you send an update every time position changes, then there is no difference.
      - sbarre 7y ago
        Not OP, and I realize you are being obtuse and difficult on purpose, but that line can have a timestamp, a device ID, and any other number of properties.
        tqi 7y ago
        I'm really not being difficult. If you've logged the data there is no difference - for one, most of these db systems are write only. Even the ones that aren't probably have a transaction logs. Plus it will be recorded in countless other places along the way.
        sbarre 7y ago
        Then perhaps you simply missed the point that was being made, which was that it's _possible_ to provide the features that Amazon promotes _without_ logging that much information on an ongoing and permanent basis.
        Godel_unicode 7y ago
        Slightly off topic: how do you know the DB is write only?? I've been looking for talks about the Kindle back end and haven't found any. I'd love to read about it, it appears to have solved some interesting problems!
- alkibiades 7y ago
  so how is that implemented? wouldn’t you just record the current page each time it changes? which is essentially the same as loggingh page turn?
  - rtkwe 7y ago
    You could just store the last location for each device which is much less useful for datamining. Any time series of events contains much more information about habits than just most recent X.
- Kuiper 7y ago
  This is apparently how older Kindle models worked, which has made them an attack vector for fraud on Kindle Unlimited: >KDP [Kindle Direct Publishing, Amazon's self-publishing platform] pays authors for both paid downloads as well as for pages read and it doesn’t sense reading speed, just the highest number of pages reached. ... >The way that the book-stuffing con works is that scammers stuff lots of extra content into an ebook before uploading it to Kindle Unlimited, and then trick readers into jumping to the end of the book. >Thanks to a flaw in the Kindle platform, namely that the platform knows your location in a book but not how many pages you have actually read, the scammers can get paid for a user having “read” a book in Kindle Unlimited by getting the user to jump to the last page. ... >Interestingly, the flip-to-end scam doesn’t quite work on newer Kindles but still works on older, non-updated Kindles which makes it still a lucrative scam. https://techcrunch.com/2018/06/11/notorious-kindle-unlimited-abuser-has-been-booted-from-the-bookstore/ https://techcrunch.com/2018/06/11/notorious-kindle-unlimited...
- jordache 7y ago
  How is recording a tap invasive?
  - rtkwe 7y ago
    It's just another accumulation of data unnecessarily just having the last page I read for each device doesn't tell you much but having a history of all of that gives Amazon information about my habits and combined with info about the book maybe mood etc.
dhimes 7y ago
Also worth noting that in the case of Kindle Unlimited (Amazon's "Netflix for ebooks" program), authors get paid per page read. I don't like this anyway. If I buy a movie from Amazon Prime and only watch part of it, do I get a partial refund? Seems like they are shafting authors.
- exolymph 7y ago
  It's opt-in, you don't have to make your books available for Kindle Unlimited.
  - SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
    It's got to favor certain types of authors/books though. The amount of finished random romance novels has to stomp all over the number of times a "Learn to Code in 21 Days" book is finished :) Seems like a good way to change the quality of books on your service.
    - lonelappde 7y ago
      The code book has longer dwell time, though.
    - Kuiper 7y ago
      Your intuitions are correct; romance novels and thriller novels tend to be the most successful genres on Kindle Unlimited. Different pricing/distribution models attract different kinds of customers. (On the other end of things, I have seen engineers pay $30+ for PDFs about technical subjects without hesitation; I don't often see people spending that kind of money for romance ebooks.) For similar reasons, the quality and genre of made-for-TV movies currently airing on the Hallmark channel is probably different from what you could experience for the cost of a ticket at your local movie theater: one of these distribution channels caters to people who want to consume several hours of content every day at no marginal cost beyond the monthly subscription that is already part of their budget, while the other caters to people who are willing to pay $15 to spend 2 hours watching a film that a studio spent millions of dollars marketing to them.
m463 7y ago
The question is -- if you turn whispersync off (and popular highlights and real-time hightlights etc...) Does Amazon respect you and turn off data collection? Or better yet - does it ask you before turning it on?

by Kuiper 7y ago

rtkwe 7y ago

There's a less invasive way to do that though by storing the latest location for each device. You don't need to store each and every page turn for the page sync feature.

jbob2000 7y ago
Then the next news article will read "Amazon stores the locations of where you are in your ebooks!". You can't have your cake and eat it too, amazon needs to store something to make this feature work.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
  - Karunamon 7y ago
    It's the same thing with the locations, since your "page" is entirely dependent on your screen size and font setting. The end of a given page could reference no less than 40 different positions in the book (8 possible font sizes, 5 different screen sizes on all available kindles).
    - Godel_unicode 7y ago
      Isn't it much more than that given iOS split screen support? I thought Kindle text was addressed by word break?
    - rtkwe 7y ago
      It's way more than that because the page breaks will also change based on screen size including apps on other devices. We aren't seeing the full data here so I bet one of the columns here is currentLocation using the word break location (which I've heard is how Loc XXX is calculated for kindle books) instead of a page number.
- wizzwizz4 7y ago
  “Amazon stores the locations of where you are in your ebooks!” is not newsworthy.
bduerst 7y ago
Correct me if I'm wrong, isn't that how whispersync works now?
tqi 7y ago
How is "tapped on page 11" different from "is on page 12"?
- alpaca128 7y ago
  90k rows of "tapped on page X" is definitely different from "is on page 12 in book Y" with exactly one entry per book.
  - tqi 7y ago
    "Is on page 12 in book Y" at what time? If you send an update every time position changes, then there is no difference.
    - sbarre 7y ago
      Not OP, and I realize you are being obtuse and difficult on purpose, but that line can have a timestamp, a device ID, and any other number of properties.
      - tqi 7y ago
        I'm really not being difficult. If you've logged the data there is no difference - for one, most of these db systems are write only. Even the ones that aren't probably have a transaction logs. Plus it will be recorded in countless other places along the way.
        sbarre 7y ago
        Then perhaps you simply missed the point that was being made, which was that it's _possible_ to provide the features that Amazon promotes _without_ logging that much information on an ongoing and permanent basis.
        Godel_unicode 7y ago
        Slightly off topic: how do you know the DB is write only?? I've been looking for talks about the Kindle back end and haven't found any. I'd love to read about it, it appears to have solved some interesting problems!
alkibiades 7y ago
so how is that implemented? wouldn’t you just record the current page each time it changes? which is essentially the same as loggingh page turn?
- rtkwe 7y ago
  You could just store the last location for each device which is much less useful for datamining. Any time series of events contains much more information about habits than just most recent X.
Kuiper 7y ago
This is apparently how older Kindle models worked, which has made them an attack vector for fraud on Kindle Unlimited: >KDP [Kindle Direct Publishing, Amazon's self-publishing platform] pays authors for both paid downloads as well as for pages read and it doesn’t sense reading speed, just the highest number of pages reached. ... >The way that the book-stuffing con works is that scammers stuff lots of extra content into an ebook before uploading it to Kindle Unlimited, and then trick readers into jumping to the end of the book. >Thanks to a flaw in the Kindle platform, namely that the platform knows your location in a book but not how many pages you have actually read, the scammers can get paid for a user having “read” a book in Kindle Unlimited by getting the user to jump to the last page. ... >Interestingly, the flip-to-end scam doesn’t quite work on newer Kindles but still works on older, non-updated Kindles which makes it still a lucrative scam. https://techcrunch.com/2018/06/11/notorious-kindle-unlimited-abuser-has-been-booted-from-the-bookstore/ https://techcrunch.com/2018/06/11/notorious-kindle-unlimited...
jordache 7y ago
How is recording a tap invasive?
- rtkwe 7y ago
  It's just another accumulation of data unnecessarily just having the last page I read for each device doesn't tell you much but having a history of all of that gives Amazon information about my habits and combined with info about the book maybe mood etc.

dhimes 7y ago

Also worth noting that in the case of Kindle Unlimited (Amazon's "Netflix for ebooks" program), authors get paid per page read. I don't like this anyway. If I buy a movie from Amazon Prime and only watch part of it, do I get a partial refund? Seems like they are shafting authors.

exolymph 7y ago
It's opt-in, you don't have to make your books available for Kindle Unlimited.
- SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
  It's got to favor certain types of authors/books though. The amount of finished random romance novels has to stomp all over the number of times a "Learn to Code in 21 Days" book is finished :) Seems like a good way to change the quality of books on your service.
  - lonelappde 7y ago
    The code book has longer dwell time, though.
  - Kuiper 7y ago
    Your intuitions are correct; romance novels and thriller novels tend to be the most successful genres on Kindle Unlimited. Different pricing/distribution models attract different kinds of customers. (On the other end of things, I have seen engineers pay $30+ for PDFs about technical subjects without hesitation; I don't often see people spending that kind of money for romance ebooks.) For similar reasons, the quality and genre of made-for-TV movies currently airing on the Hallmark channel is probably different from what you could experience for the cost of a ticket at your local movie theater: one of these distribution channels caters to people who want to consume several hours of content every day at no marginal cost beyond the monthly subscription that is already part of their budget, while the other caters to people who are willing to pay $15 to spend 2 hours watching a film that a studio spent millions of dollars marketing to them.

m463 7y ago

The question is -- if you turn whispersync off (and popular highlights and real-time hightlights etc...) Does Amazon respect you and turn off data collection? Or better yet - does it ask you before turning it on?