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Well, my name, my job title, my employer, my job history. These are all my information, and selling them to marketing companies is definitely not archiving. W

Well, my name, my job title, my employer, my job history. These are all my information, and selling them to marketing companies is definitely not archiving. Would you be OK with a company scraping your blog and selling it?

derefr 7y ago
> Would you be OK with a company scraping your blog and selling it? Selling it how? If they put my blog posts in a book and try to sell that book, that’s copyright infringement. If they put my blog posts in an ML model corpus to train a translation service, and they then charge pay-per-use access to the resulting service... I don’t think I’d care, nor do I think there’s anything morally or legally wrong with that. If they scrape my name and phone number and generate a Yellow-Pages-like index from them? That’s explicitly allowed by law; and heck, that’s why I embedded the information onto my site in vCard microformat in the first place! To put my philosophy succinctly: if web.archive.org can scrape your data without you having an explicit relationship with them granting them that right, then bad.evil.com can too. You can allow both (= publicizing your information), or neither (= protecting your information), but you can’t allow one but not the other. “Third parties you don’t have a relationship with, who access your data through the public sphere without entering into a specific licensing arrangement with you” are legally one big amorphous blob. You can’t make a law that splits that blob up, because it’s an opaque blob; in the ACL system that is contract law, all entities you don’t have contracts with are just one entity—“the public.” If you want some specific entities to have access to your information, that’s what protecting your data (= setting an ACL “the public = disallow”) and then explicitly licensing it out by entering into contracts (= setting an ACL “entity X = allow”) is for.
- Dayshine 7y ago
  Why can't I have terms on my website that say how you can use my information? Examples where this is allowed: - Images/media (Creative commons) - Code (Open source licenses) You say it isn't allowed for: - Personal data Unless I'm misunderstanding your philosophy (which seems to say copyright is OK, but public information must be public to all): You believe that it's morally OK for me to prevent a company selling my book, but not morally OK for me to prevent a company selling my name, job title and employer as a marketing bundle? Edit: An aside, it's really confusing that you seem to be editing your previous replies minutes after I responded. I thought HN only let users edit during the "no replies" period?
  - derefr 7y ago
    > Why can't I have terms on my website that say how you can use my information? Neither Creative Commons nor copyleft (nor copyright in general!) can assert anything about private use. IP rights are commercial rights; they affect sellers of your IP. They don’t affect end-consumers of your IP. Note that even the GPL can’t force someone to publish the source of their GPLed-library-containing program, if they never publish the program itself, but only build it for their own private use. Why? Because, by broadcasting the code of your GPLed library, you granted people an implicit use-right to it! Not a redistribution right; not a derivative-works right; but a use right. (If this wasn’t true, then people would be breaking the law by reading “common” newspapers in a cafe, or by listening to the radio, since they never entered into any explicit contract with the distributor/broadcaster.) How does software licensing work, then? Mostly by 1. companies installing software on computers for their employees to use being considered IP redistributors; and 2. attachment of copyright through sampling when asset samples [e.g. brushes/textures in Photoshop] are distributed through the program. Other than that, there’s really no law forcing end-users to pay for software licenses. This is why e.g. WinRAR would never have been able to sue anybody. They published their shareware binary (without gating it behind a contractual relationship, like Adobe’s Creative Cloud installer); so now you have a use-right to it! > You believe that it's morally OK for me to prevent a company selling my book, but not morally OK for me to prevent a company selling my phone number? Copyright exists because your ability to make money from your own creative works hinges on your ability to exclusively license those works. If a publisher can get a redistribution license to your manuscript for free from a third party, why would they buy it from you? You having exclusive access to your phone number does not make you money; others having access to your phone number does not deprive you of money you could have made by keeping that information private. Thus, there’s no advantage to introducing IP law into this domain (the domain of facts.) There was a recent court case about someone creating a subway map by copying the raw data from existing subway maps, where the comments went deeper into this.
    - Dayshine 7y ago
      Right, sure, I hadn't really thought about how copyright isn't really enforceable against individuals. That's very interesting. However, I'm really not sure how this is relevant to your moral stance on commercial use of "public" personal information. Why do you believe it's reasonable to prevent unauthorized commercial exploitation of creative works, but not to prevent unauthorized commercial exploitation of personal information. The former simply affects the small percentage of people who sell their works. The latter affects the vast majority of the population who receive targeted spam, have their information collated and sold for profiling, are victims of identity fraud when those databases are inevitably leaked, etc. For what it's worth, as I mentioned in my first comment, the GDPR absolutely gives me rights to control how my personal information is used. And the GDPR has a near total exemption for individual use. What benefits do you see of commercial use against the wishes of the person that published it that outweigh the risks? (making money isn't a benefit)
- briandear 7y ago
  > If they put my blog posts in a book and try to sell that book, that’s copyright infringement Actually even if they don’t sell it, but give it away, that’s still copyright infringement.

derefr 7y ago

> Would you be OK with a company scraping your blog and selling it? Selling it how? If they put my blog posts in a book and try to sell that book, that’s copyright infringement. If they put my blog posts in an ML model corpus to train a translation service, and they then charge pay-per-use access to the resulting service... I don’t think I’d care, nor do I think there’s anything morally or legally wrong with that. If they scrape my name and phone number and generate a Yellow-Pages-like index from them? That’s explicitly allowed by law; and heck, that’s why I embedded the information onto my site in vCard microformat in the first place! To put my philosophy succinctly: if web.archive.org can scrape your data without you having an explicit relationship with them granting them that right, then bad.evil.com can too. You can allow both (= publicizing your information), or neither (= protecting your information), but you can’t allow one but not the other. “Third parties you don’t have a relationship with, who access your data through the public sphere without entering into a specific licensing arrangement with you” are legally one big amorphous blob. You can’t make a law that splits that blob up, because it’s an opaque blob; in the ACL system that is contract law, all entities you don’t have contracts with are just one entity—“the public.” If you want some specific entities to have access to your information, that’s what protecting your data (= setting an ACL “the public = disallow”) and then explicitly licensing it out by entering into contracts (= setting an ACL “entity X = allow”) is for.

Dayshine 7y ago
Why can't I have terms on my website that say how you can use my information? Examples where this is allowed: - Images/media (Creative commons) - Code (Open source licenses) You say it isn't allowed for: - Personal data Unless I'm misunderstanding your philosophy (which seems to say copyright is OK, but public information must be public to all): You believe that it's morally OK for me to prevent a company selling my book, but not morally OK for me to prevent a company selling my name, job title and employer as a marketing bundle? Edit: An aside, it's really confusing that you seem to be editing your previous replies minutes after I responded. I thought HN only let users edit during the "no replies" period?
- derefr 7y ago
  > Why can't I have terms on my website that say how you can use my information? Neither Creative Commons nor copyleft (nor copyright in general!) can assert anything about private use. IP rights are commercial rights; they affect sellers of your IP. They don’t affect end-consumers of your IP. Note that even the GPL can’t force someone to publish the source of their GPLed-library-containing program, if they never publish the program itself, but only build it for their own private use. Why? Because, by broadcasting the code of your GPLed library, you granted people an implicit use-right to it! Not a redistribution right; not a derivative-works right; but a use right. (If this wasn’t true, then people would be breaking the law by reading “common” newspapers in a cafe, or by listening to the radio, since they never entered into any explicit contract with the distributor/broadcaster.) How does software licensing work, then? Mostly by 1. companies installing software on computers for their employees to use being considered IP redistributors; and 2. attachment of copyright through sampling when asset samples [e.g. brushes/textures in Photoshop] are distributed through the program. Other than that, there’s really no law forcing end-users to pay for software licenses. This is why e.g. WinRAR would never have been able to sue anybody. They published their shareware binary (without gating it behind a contractual relationship, like Adobe’s Creative Cloud installer); so now you have a use-right to it! > You believe that it's morally OK for me to prevent a company selling my book, but not morally OK for me to prevent a company selling my phone number? Copyright exists because your ability to make money from your own creative works hinges on your ability to exclusively license those works. If a publisher can get a redistribution license to your manuscript for free from a third party, why would they buy it from you? You having exclusive access to your phone number does not make you money; others having access to your phone number does not deprive you of money you could have made by keeping that information private. Thus, there’s no advantage to introducing IP law into this domain (the domain of facts.) There was a recent court case about someone creating a subway map by copying the raw data from existing subway maps, where the comments went deeper into this.
  - Dayshine 7y ago
    Right, sure, I hadn't really thought about how copyright isn't really enforceable against individuals. That's very interesting. However, I'm really not sure how this is relevant to your moral stance on commercial use of "public" personal information. Why do you believe it's reasonable to prevent unauthorized commercial exploitation of creative works, but not to prevent unauthorized commercial exploitation of personal information. The former simply affects the small percentage of people who sell their works. The latter affects the vast majority of the population who receive targeted spam, have their information collated and sold for profiling, are victims of identity fraud when those databases are inevitably leaked, etc. For what it's worth, as I mentioned in my first comment, the GDPR absolutely gives me rights to control how my personal information is used. And the GDPR has a near total exemption for individual use. What benefits do you see of commercial use against the wishes of the person that published it that outweigh the risks? (making money isn't a benefit)
briandear 7y ago
> If they put my blog posts in a book and try to sell that book, that’s copyright infringement Actually even if they don’t sell it, but give it away, that’s still copyright infringement.