4 ms·

there is no technology that exists or is contemplated that can provide storage at the required scale. renewables are very cheap when they are a smaller percent

there is no technology that exists or is contemplated that can provide storage at the required scale. renewables are very cheap when they are a smaller percentage of the power, but as the percentage increases you need to massively over provision them to deal with the variability.

kragen 7y ago
You'll probably want to read the calculations in Dercuano about lithium reserves, but I agree that massive overprovisioning is a better solution than just massive batteries.
arghwhat 7y ago
For current large-scale battery projects, see the 100MW (soon 150MW) Tesla battery deployment in Australia. It is also much easier to install something like a PowerWall in individual homes, and alternative storage forms such as good ol' potential energy storage with water dams or hoisted weights are also available. Finally, unlike with coal/gas/nuclear where plant size and number has a direct negative environmental impact (one thing being that they all need to run idle even if unused), over-provisioning with renewable energy, especially wind, is not really a problem.
- wayoutthere 7y ago
  PowerWall doesn't remotely scale to grid-scale, and 150MW battery deployments don't begin to address the hundreds of 2000+ MW coal plants [1] out there. They're a band-aid that only works in specific use cases. Battery manufacture, recycling and transport, combined with the need to replace most of the cells every decade are seen to largely negate both the carbon offset and cost benefits of solar. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_coal_power_stations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_coal_power_stations
  - kragen 7y ago
    Clearly you haven't done the calculations. And what is this nonsense about negating carbon offsets?
  - keanzu 7y ago
    PowerWall scales fine, like most things do, with infinite money. All you need is a ~$10K [1] investment (including installation) for every house every 10 years (warranty period) and voila - grid scale! Oh warranty doesn't cover normal degradation of energy capacity over time. [2] [1] https://www.energysage.com/solar/solar-energy-storage/tesla-powerwall-home-battery/ https://www.energysage.com/solar/solar-energy-storage/tesla-... [2] https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/new-powerwall-warranty/ https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/new-powerwall-warranty/

kragen 7y ago

You'll probably want to read the calculations in Dercuano about lithium reserves, but I agree that massive overprovisioning is a better solution than just massive batteries.

arghwhat 7y ago

For current large-scale battery projects, see the 100MW (soon 150MW) Tesla battery deployment in Australia. It is also much easier to install something like a PowerWall in individual homes, and alternative storage forms such as good ol' potential energy storage with water dams or hoisted weights are also available. Finally, unlike with coal/gas/nuclear where plant size and number has a direct negative environmental impact (one thing being that they all need to run idle even if unused), over-provisioning with renewable energy, especially wind, is not really a problem.

wayoutthere 7y ago
PowerWall doesn't remotely scale to grid-scale, and 150MW battery deployments don't begin to address the hundreds of 2000+ MW coal plants [1] out there. They're a band-aid that only works in specific use cases. Battery manufacture, recycling and transport, combined with the need to replace most of the cells every decade are seen to largely negate both the carbon offset and cost benefits of solar. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_coal_power_stations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_coal_power_stations
- kragen 7y ago
  Clearly you haven't done the calculations. And what is this nonsense about negating carbon offsets?
- keanzu 7y ago
  PowerWall scales fine, like most things do, with infinite money. All you need is a ~$10K [1] investment (including installation) for every house every 10 years (warranty period) and voila - grid scale! Oh warranty doesn't cover normal degradation of energy capacity over time. [2] [1] https://www.energysage.com/solar/solar-energy-storage/tesla-powerwall-home-battery/ https://www.energysage.com/solar/solar-energy-storage/tesla-... [2] https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/new-powerwall-warranty/ https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/new-powerwall-warranty/