5 ms·

At the same time, nuclear, coal and gas are exactly the power sources that you do not want located close to usage centers, due to their environmental problems.

At the same time, nuclear, coal and gas are exactly the power sources that you do not want located close to usage centers, due to their environmental problems. If grid strain is a concern, local storage is likely the best solution, which could be charged slowly from large remote sites. A small windmill or solar farm could also be present nearby. Plus, with solar panels on the roof and batteries like the PowerWall, it's possible for many homes to be self-sufficient from the solar panels, as well as run off their storage (even if charged by the grid instead of solar) to offload the grid, either due to supply issues or just to level out peak demand.

readams 7y ago
there is no technology that exists or is contemplated that can provide storage at the required scale. renewables are very cheap when they are a smaller percentage of the power, but as the percentage increases you need to massively over provision them to deal with the variability.
- kragen 7y ago
  You'll probably want to read the calculations in Dercuano about lithium reserves, but I agree that massive overprovisioning is a better solution than just massive batteries.
- arghwhat 7y ago
  For current large-scale battery projects, see the 100MW (soon 150MW) Tesla battery deployment in Australia. It is also much easier to install something like a PowerWall in individual homes, and alternative storage forms such as good ol' potential energy storage with water dams or hoisted weights are also available. Finally, unlike with coal/gas/nuclear where plant size and number has a direct negative environmental impact (one thing being that they all need to run idle even if unused), over-provisioning with renewable energy, especially wind, is not really a problem.
  - wayoutthere 7y ago
    PowerWall doesn't remotely scale to grid-scale, and 150MW battery deployments don't begin to address the hundreds of 2000+ MW coal plants [1] out there. They're a band-aid that only works in specific use cases. Battery manufacture, recycling and transport, combined with the need to replace most of the cells every decade are seen to largely negate both the carbon offset and cost benefits of solar. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_coal_power_stations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_coal_power_stations
    - kragen 7y ago
      Clearly you haven't done the calculations. And what is this nonsense about negating carbon offsets?
    - keanzu 7y ago
      PowerWall scales fine, like most things do, with infinite money. All you need is a ~$10K [1] investment (including installation) for every house every 10 years (warranty period) and voila - grid scale! Oh warranty doesn't cover normal degradation of energy capacity over time. [2] [1] https://www.energysage.com/solar/solar-energy-storage/tesla-powerwall-home-battery/ https://www.energysage.com/solar/solar-energy-storage/tesla-... [2] https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/new-powerwall-warranty/ https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/new-powerwall-warranty/
hokkos 7y ago
No, not for winter heating, also shared is cheaper than privately owned.
- kragen 7y ago
  You can definitely provide winter heating from rooftop solar panels except within the Arctic and Antarctic circles. Shared things may or may not be cheaper than privately owned; it depends on the particular situation. A utility-scale battery energy storage system needs inverters and distribution lines, each of which have both costs and energy losses; a home battery energy storage system doesn't need distribution lines and may not need inverters. And even if you have shared utility energy storage, it may not meet your reliability needs, so you may need private energy storage anyway, as most data centers do, adding to the costs.
- arghwhat 7y ago
  Solar in winter is not as bad as you might think. Up here in Scandinavia, the primary issue is the shortened days, which obviously cut our capacity a bit. However, if you're using electric heating in your country, maybe we should start by fixing that first. Use something more efficient like ground heat exchange, and possibly remote heating for residential areas. Electric heating is silly.

readams 7y ago

there is no technology that exists or is contemplated that can provide storage at the required scale. renewables are very cheap when they are a smaller percentage of the power, but as the percentage increases you need to massively over provision them to deal with the variability.

kragen 7y ago
You'll probably want to read the calculations in Dercuano about lithium reserves, but I agree that massive overprovisioning is a better solution than just massive batteries.
arghwhat 7y ago
For current large-scale battery projects, see the 100MW (soon 150MW) Tesla battery deployment in Australia. It is also much easier to install something like a PowerWall in individual homes, and alternative storage forms such as good ol' potential energy storage with water dams or hoisted weights are also available. Finally, unlike with coal/gas/nuclear where plant size and number has a direct negative environmental impact (one thing being that they all need to run idle even if unused), over-provisioning with renewable energy, especially wind, is not really a problem.
- wayoutthere 7y ago
  PowerWall doesn't remotely scale to grid-scale, and 150MW battery deployments don't begin to address the hundreds of 2000+ MW coal plants [1] out there. They're a band-aid that only works in specific use cases. Battery manufacture, recycling and transport, combined with the need to replace most of the cells every decade are seen to largely negate both the carbon offset and cost benefits of solar. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_coal_power_stations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_coal_power_stations
  - kragen 7y ago
    Clearly you haven't done the calculations. And what is this nonsense about negating carbon offsets?
  - keanzu 7y ago
    PowerWall scales fine, like most things do, with infinite money. All you need is a ~$10K [1] investment (including installation) for every house every 10 years (warranty period) and voila - grid scale! Oh warranty doesn't cover normal degradation of energy capacity over time. [2] [1] https://www.energysage.com/solar/solar-energy-storage/tesla-powerwall-home-battery/ https://www.energysage.com/solar/solar-energy-storage/tesla-... [2] https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/new-powerwall-warranty/ https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/new-powerwall-warranty/

hokkos 7y ago

No, not for winter heating, also shared is cheaper than privately owned.

kragen 7y ago
You can definitely provide winter heating from rooftop solar panels except within the Arctic and Antarctic circles. Shared things may or may not be cheaper than privately owned; it depends on the particular situation. A utility-scale battery energy storage system needs inverters and distribution lines, each of which have both costs and energy losses; a home battery energy storage system doesn't need distribution lines and may not need inverters. And even if you have shared utility energy storage, it may not meet your reliability needs, so you may need private energy storage anyway, as most data centers do, adding to the costs.
arghwhat 7y ago
Solar in winter is not as bad as you might think. Up here in Scandinavia, the primary issue is the shortened days, which obviously cut our capacity a bit. However, if you're using electric heating in your country, maybe we should start by fixing that first. Use something more efficient like ground heat exchange, and possibly remote heating for residential areas. Electric heating is silly.