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At my pediatrician's office the norm is to sign forms without seeing them at all. The receptionist has a computer screen; the patient has a signature pad with
by dzdt 7y ago
At my pediatrician's office the norm is to sign forms without seeing them at all. The receptionist has a computer screen; the patient has a signature pad with no display. They will say "please sign for permission to treat" then "please sign again for HIPAA approval" and so on. I think you could ask to see the forms, but it would be breaking the social norms to do so. You would instantly be a "difficult" patient.
- marcinzm 7y agoGiven that the forms are basically lawsuit protection seems like that'd be a risky approach depending on how determined the lawyer suing is.
- kop316 7y agoI disagree that it break social norms. If I am agreeing to something, I want to know what I am agreeing to. If I get treated like I am "difficult", I would say you should be shopping around for a different pediatrician.
- jiveturkey 7y agoThe definition of social norm is what most other people think. Do you not realize that most people will just sign the form without reading or checking? That is the norm.
- snowwrestler 7y agoA social norm is what other people expect from you. It arises from commonalities within the group, but has an additional component of expectation. Not every deviation from typical behavior violates a social norm. I don't think it's a relevant concept here, because even if the rest of the patients don't read the HIPAA documents, they also don't care whether you read them. The staff don't care either, even if they have to do a little extra work so you can. Shouting loudly in the waiting room would be a good example of violating a social norm--people generally expect each other to speak normally/quietly in a medical office.
- logfromblammo 7y agoThe docs that don't bury the patient in bureaucratic nonsense are out of network, and not accepting new patients anyway.
- cjbprime 7y agoSame at mine. I can see how optimizations like this at least make the most sense at a pediatrician's office, where you're likely to be holding a cranky baby in one arm as you try to check in.
- prepend 7y agoMy office asked me to sign a blank sheet of forms that the doctor would fill out after our appointment. When I asked to wait until after the appointment the receptionist person huffed and said I always signed them this way. When I pointed out it was my first visit, she looked agitated and argued that it was not my first visit. I think she wanted it so she could start prepping my insurance submission. But it’s sad to me that trying to improve a burdensome administrative system makes it casual to have patients misrepresent. Similarly to being asked to sign a form saying I’ve read the medical privacy policy, but not being allowed to see the policy. The assumption is that patients will sign anything, which kind of defeats the purpose of patients signing anything.
- vageli 7y agoI have started to write "this form was blank when I was asked to sign" with the date and my initials diagonally across the page over the fields that would be later filled.
- c0restraint 7y agoIs it illegal to write someone else's name, like "Donald Duck" in the field, in legible script? It's clearly NOT your signature then...
- asd4 7y agoWith what is at stake I'm ok being "difficult". At the end of the day the person running the desk just ensures that you have the minimum required for treatment. In the US, at least in larger cities, one of the signatures is often to share your data on an ERM network with all doctors/hospitals in the network. I never sign this one and it's never been an issue.
- hunter2_ 7y agoNow that you mention it, POS signature pads are often the same way. They generally give you a terse summary such as "I agree to pay [grand total]" above the input box, and then they print a verbose receipt with your signature at the bottom. Although in this case, I guess your signature is really just saying that you agree to pay the grand total, not that you agree with every fine detail of the receipt.
- dillonmckay 7y agoThe signature can be anything, though. I usually sign a big ‘X’, or draw a smiley face.
- scrumbledober 7y agoAt my local watering hole they have you sign on an ipad that gives you the entire screen as a canvas that I exclusively use to leave lewd art.
- kube-system 7y agoOne pixel is usually enough to pass input validation.
- pkulak 7y agoSometimes they check for a line that crosses itself at least one time.
- roynasser 7y agoIn this case someone named "Oleg"could have their signature deemed invalid if they dont cross the G/E and close the O? lol
- kube-system 7y ago... or 'jill'?
- blackboxlogic 7y agoSame at my doctor. I asked to see what I was signing and the receptionist said no one had ever asked before. She had to get the manager to figure out how to print it.
- stallmanite 7y agoI had the same experience. I find it hard to believe literally ever other patient was fine with signing sight-unseen. I don’t care if I’m being “difficult” signing without reading is not wise.
- crysin 7y agoUsually if you're at a doctor, you're there for an illness or a health issue you want checked. I don't think most people make their way to the doctor's office, after taking PTO or an extended lunch to go there, to then decide not to finish signing in because they couldn't read the paperwork.
- stallmanite 7y agoI’ve never been refused service because I insisted upon having forms printed. Nobody is talking about just going home.
- TheBolivianNavy 7y agoOne time I was having some imaging done and they had me sign forms on a tablet. One of the signatures was stating that I had received a physical copy of the forms I was signing. I asked for a physical copy before signing. They said they couldn't do that until I signed. I refused to sign. Thirty minutes later they figured out how to print it (it took the whole office to work out how). Then I signed.
- ryandrake 7y agoWhat social norms are you talking about? I always ask to see and read anything I'm asked to sign, and I don't think I'm being "difficult" in any way. Why on earth would you sign something you've never read?
- zippergz 7y agoBecause 99%+ of other patients just sign it without reading it.
- vorpalhex 7y agoI've had this issue with other contracts as well. People act like you're a crazy person for reading a document before you sign it - "Well it's just the normal stuff". I always pause, make strong eye contact, and go "Oh, so you normally sign things without reading them first?" That usually causes them to go quiet.
- dawnerd 7y agoI read my last car document carefully and they tried everything they could do rush me through it. Told them if they kept interrupting it will just waste more of their time. Buying my house was the same. They absolutely overload you with documents and not enough time to read everything. Luckily with e signing it makes it less stressful to read.
- dwater 7y agoThe home buying paperwork process has improved post-housing crisis. There is less total paperwork, and much of it changed to be easier to read and understand. I've done it 3 times, once before the crisis and twice after, and I've never felt rushed. If the closing company makes you feel pressured you should push back, they should appreciate the gravity of the process.
- Washuu 7y agoI bought a house just over a month ago. I never met the sellers, sellers' realtor, or anyone else involved in the transaction until the closing date in person. Everything was done digitally including near all communication. I was able to take as much time as I wished to read over everything I was signing. On the closing day it I met the sellers for about five minutes and was with the lawyers for about thirty minutes. The whole process is vastly improved.
- c0restraint 7y agoI've signed mortgage documents several times in the past few years, and I've had the opposite experience. The first time they openly scoffed at me for taking the time to read it. Took about two hours to read >100 pages.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- charwalker 7y agoThey should provide a copy for review, laminated or otherwise, then push the digital signature.
- lynndotpy 7y agoI was reading through the privacy forms at a local medical office before signing them, and I found they were unfinished. Many parts were blanks with instructions to "Enter contact for head of privacy here."
- sneak 7y agoSame, although mine was missing the second page! It cut off in the middle of a sentence. I asked for the second page before signing and they said they didn't have it, that that was the whole thing. The office also ignores most HIPAA regulations, leaving workstations logged in in private rooms, no screen locks, and sharing a single account amongst all staff, no 2FA. Health privacy regulation in the USA is a joke because it's mostly unenforced. Most people just sign away 100% of their rights, and if you don't, the office will simply refuse to serve you as the forms are all integrated and non-negotiable.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- phkahler 7y agoOne office had me sign a document confirming that I had read some policy of theirs. I asked for the policy that I was agreeing that I'd seen. It took several minutes of someone running around the office digging through drawers and file cabinets to find a copy. Obviously almost everyone affirms having seen it when they have not.
- true_religion 7y agoFunny enough my doctors office always asks me to affirm if I have read or been told about their policy. I always check "no", and they have never once followed up on that in the many years I have been with them.
- Teever 7y agoI don't understand how this kind of situation is legal. Like isn't the whole framework that the office is making people enter into contracts so non-conducive to the premise of a legal agreement that it nullifies it? If being made to sign a contract that you can't read doesn't go against the premise of a contract than what does?
- alexfromapex 7y agoIn contract law you have to reach mutual assent so if you’ve never read a contract but they signed it with your signature it would be thrown out in court and probably grounds for a tort suit if nothing else
- DoubleGlazing 7y agoI always read things I'm about to sign, even if it annoys the staff. It's too much of a risk to just agree and hope all will be Okay. I'll not sign stuff that has clauses about binding arbitration or mandatory data sharing with other organisations. I was signing up for a phone and started reading the T&Cs. Two pages of super small text. The staff member was surprised and said "No one reads that, it's just standard stuff". After a few minutes he starts pressing me to sign it as their system will cancel a signup not completed within five minutes. I doubt that 5-min timeout was a deliberate attempt to coerce people to signing up without reading the terms, but it certainly shows just how little people care about that stuff if they don't account for reading time in their signup process.
- ntw1103 7y agoI always read everything before signing, and don't sign if I don't agree, unless I can make amendments. I have made a number of ammendment to leases. Most people don't even realize that is a possibility. Some companies won't accept any ammendment, others do. I have gotten pressure to sign without time to read on many occasions. If the issue is pushed much, I get up and walk out, if that is an option.
- pkulak 7y agoSometimes I think about starting to read every word of everything I sign. When I'm in line and asked to sign something that's 50 pages long, just stand right there and start reading. Probably won't accomplish anything except to make my life more difficult though, which is why I don't do it.
- eximius 7y agoThis just happened to me. I wonder if the contract is enforceable at this point. I didn't agree that I'd read or agreed to the terms, they only asked for my signature.