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> The most logical answer is that they have a tradition of migrating. These are people who have been moving for a couple of thousand years. They have been migra

by danans 7y ago

> The most logical answer is that they have a tradition of migrating. These are people who have been moving for a couple of thousand years. They have been migrating from island to island and they keep migrating until they run out of places to migrate to. While their ocean wayfinding skills were doubtless incredible, I have a hard time believing they migrated for the sake of migration. Most human migrations away from an existing settlement are motivated by the tips of the spears of those who hold power in the settlement, ultimately by population exceeding the resources available. People still ultimately prefer the relative security of the settlement to the dangers of the wilds, and usually only venture out into the latter when they have no other choice. Obviously this applies less to nomadic groups, but even in that case the group is really a mobile settlement.

taneq 7y ago
The motivation certainly seems to mainly have been finding new places to live: > While the early Polynesians were skilled navigators, most evidence indicates that their primary exploratory motivation was to ease the demands of burgeoning populations. Polynesian mythology does not speak of explorers bent on conquest of new territories, but rather of heroic discoverers of new lands for the benefit of those who voyaged with them. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polynesian_culture#Development_in_isolation:_(c._700_to_1595) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polynesian_culture#Development... > People still ultimately prefer the relative security of the settlement to the dangers of the wilds, and usually only venture out into the latter when they have no other choice. From what I've seen, the opposite is true, at least for a subset of people who prefer to travel and explore. These people usually move again after their new land is fully established. They just like the frontier.
- danans 7y ago
  > From what I've seen, the opposite is true, at least for a subset of people who prefer to travel and explore. These people usually move again after their new land is fully established. They just like the frontier. Most of the European migration to the United States was by people who were either refugees (the first Puritan settlers, Jews fleeing persecution), starving (Irish and Southern Europan immigrants), or forcefully evicted from their homes (Scottish peasants after the Highland Clearances [1]). Even within the US, groups that we think of as pioneering westward, like the Mormons, were fundamentally fleeing persecution. According to the Latter Day Saints' history (as explained to me by the tour guide at the Church's HQ in Salt Lake City's), it was legal in NY state to kill Mormons in the early days of their community - thus triggering their series of migrations west ultimately to what we call Utah today. Others westward American pioneers were landless and destitute as the arable lands of the eastern seaboard were all held by wealthy estates. Their options were to stay in near-serfdom or move west. Among them no doubt were a few who migrated just for the sake of adventure. But most people were moving just to survive. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_Clearances https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_Clearances
  - P_I_Staker 7y ago
    So basically they didn't have many other good options? Stay and be killed, otherwise persecuted, or starve. Flee and worst-case scenario, you just die anyway, but there's a chance of something better.
  - cafard 7y ago
    It was "legal" to kill Mormons in the sense that a jury might decline to convict the killers. They had a pretty brutal time at Nauvoo, Illinois, as well. Much the largest part of Scottish emigration to America was from the Lowlands--there were just a lot more people in the Lowlands than in the Highlands. And the German emigration mostly wasn't of refugees or the starving.
    - danans 7y ago
      > Much the largest part of Scottish emigration to America was from the Lowlands--there were just a lot more people in the Lowlands than in the Highlands. The Highlands were much more populated before than after the Clearances. They were cleared to make space for industrial scale sheep farming. Many of those evicted Highlanders spent a time in the oversubscribed Lowland cities before moving on to the American colonies. > And the German emigration mostly wasn't of refugees or the starving. > And the German emigration mostly wasn't of refugees or the starving. I'm not so sure about that. From https://www.deutschland.de/en/usa/us-immigration-americas-german-roots https://www.deutschland.de/en/usa/us-immigration-americas-ge... : "German emigration to the USA began at the end of the 17th century when Germany was suffering from the after-effects of the bloody religious conflicts of the Thirty Years’ War, and Christian minorities were being persecuted. Many farmers lived in poverty, their very existence threatened by failed harvests and land shortages, so many decided to leave for a country that appeared to offer both freedom and prosperity. That country was America." "The situation in Germany worsened when the start of industrialisation caused the population to grow dramatically. In the mid-19th century, around three quarters of farmers did not have enough land to make a living, hence they began migrating in huge numbers from 1816 – the start of official German mass emigration to the USA."

by danans 7y ago

taneq 7y ago

The motivation certainly seems to mainly have been finding new places to live: > While the early Polynesians were skilled navigators, most evidence indicates that their primary exploratory motivation was to ease the demands of burgeoning populations. Polynesian mythology does not speak of explorers bent on conquest of new territories, but rather of heroic discoverers of new lands for the benefit of those who voyaged with them. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polynesian_culture#Development_in_isolation:_(c._700_to_1595) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polynesian_culture#Development... > People still ultimately prefer the relative security of the settlement to the dangers of the wilds, and usually only venture out into the latter when they have no other choice. From what I've seen, the opposite is true, at least for a subset of people who prefer to travel and explore. These people usually move again after their new land is fully established. They just like the frontier.

danans 7y ago
> From what I've seen, the opposite is true, at least for a subset of people who prefer to travel and explore. These people usually move again after their new land is fully established. They just like the frontier. Most of the European migration to the United States was by people who were either refugees (the first Puritan settlers, Jews fleeing persecution), starving (Irish and Southern Europan immigrants), or forcefully evicted from their homes (Scottish peasants after the Highland Clearances [1]). Even within the US, groups that we think of as pioneering westward, like the Mormons, were fundamentally fleeing persecution. According to the Latter Day Saints' history (as explained to me by the tour guide at the Church's HQ in Salt Lake City's), it was legal in NY state to kill Mormons in the early days of their community - thus triggering their series of migrations west ultimately to what we call Utah today. Others westward American pioneers were landless and destitute as the arable lands of the eastern seaboard were all held by wealthy estates. Their options were to stay in near-serfdom or move west. Among them no doubt were a few who migrated just for the sake of adventure. But most people were moving just to survive. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_Clearances https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_Clearances
- P_I_Staker 7y ago
  So basically they didn't have many other good options? Stay and be killed, otherwise persecuted, or starve. Flee and worst-case scenario, you just die anyway, but there's a chance of something better.
- cafard 7y ago
  It was "legal" to kill Mormons in the sense that a jury might decline to convict the killers. They had a pretty brutal time at Nauvoo, Illinois, as well. Much the largest part of Scottish emigration to America was from the Lowlands--there were just a lot more people in the Lowlands than in the Highlands. And the German emigration mostly wasn't of refugees or the starving.
  - danans 7y ago
    > Much the largest part of Scottish emigration to America was from the Lowlands--there were just a lot more people in the Lowlands than in the Highlands. The Highlands were much more populated before than after the Clearances. They were cleared to make space for industrial scale sheep farming. Many of those evicted Highlanders spent a time in the oversubscribed Lowland cities before moving on to the American colonies. > And the German emigration mostly wasn't of refugees or the starving. > And the German emigration mostly wasn't of refugees or the starving. I'm not so sure about that. From https://www.deutschland.de/en/usa/us-immigration-americas-german-roots https://www.deutschland.de/en/usa/us-immigration-americas-ge... : "German emigration to the USA began at the end of the 17th century when Germany was suffering from the after-effects of the bloody religious conflicts of the Thirty Years’ War, and Christian minorities were being persecuted. Many farmers lived in poverty, their very existence threatened by failed harvests and land shortages, so many decided to leave for a country that appeared to offer both freedom and prosperity. That country was America." "The situation in Germany worsened when the start of industrialisation caused the population to grow dramatically. In the mid-19th century, around three quarters of farmers did not have enough land to make a living, hence they began migrating in huge numbers from 1816 – the start of official German mass emigration to the USA."