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There are many examples of Neanderthal flint tools. With that in mind, I'm wondering if they didn't discover fire by hitting a flint with another rock with iro

by Zenst 7y ago

There are many examples of Neanderthal flint tools. With that in mind, I'm wondering if they didn't discover fire by hitting a flint with another rock with iron in it - producing sparks.

BurningFrog 7y ago
I'm possibly being a jerk, but... Fire didn't need discovering. It happens naturally from lightning, and you can speculate that our first "taming" of it was simply to grab it from a burning forest fire and then keep it alive for as long as possible. To make fire from scratch is a harder project. And what you really meant, I know :)
- SomewhatLikely 7y ago
  Discussion of that difficulty gap is threaded throughout the whole article.
hcarvalhoalves 7y ago
Even when you know how to make fire (and the most efficient way to make fire) it's still super difficult. Try going outdoor and making a bonfire from sparks. I don't think it's far fetched to think of it as bleeding-edge technology that only a few (of a certain species) had control over at the time. It would be similar to us meeting humanoid aliens and watching them master nuclear fusion.
- PeterisP 7y ago
  IDK, it's not that difficult, I've seen all kinds of outdoorsy organizations/events manage to teach preteen kids in less than an hour to start a fire with flint&steel + items they themselves gather in the forest. It's more difficult if it's been raining or everything is under snow, but I've seen adults do that (with some guiding words, though, not discovering on their own) quite quickly even if they've never done this before. It takes some effort and patience (mostly in preparing a good environment for a spark to light something small and dry on fire), and you need to know what are good conditions for a fire to start (which may not be obvious if you've never had fire), and you need a desire to make a fire as opposed to fearing it; so there's some barrier to overcome in inventing/attempting the process, but once that's done and you see how others are using and maintaining fire (even if the 'magic' initial process is obscured) then the technique would spread out like literal fire.
  - hisnameismanuel 7y ago
    Steel is made using fire, and to use flint, you must be aware of its existence, its fire-marking properties, and where to find it.
  - fred_is_fred 7y ago
    Where pray tell would the Neanderthals get the steel from?
  - jazzyjackson 7y ago
    (This is more a reply to your replies) It takes practice but steel & flint isn't necessary, here's a video of a friend of mine who does what you're saying, teach kids survival skills. She uses particular kinds of wood you would need to learn to recognize but of course people have been doing it for a million years Warning: very enthusiastic audience; having been off the grid for a couple weeks, seeing a fire started by hand was big entertainment https://youtu.be/d_HGO31E0sI https://youtu.be/d_HGO31E0sI
  - WalterBright 7y ago
    Knowing that fire is possible to make from sparks is the biggest factor.
  - asdff 7y ago
    Go watch a youtube video then try to go make a primitive fire. Collecting the right fire starting material is not always a possibility, let alone the flint. If it rained the day before you might not be able to make a fire even with the right starting tools. If it's cold or windy it might not happen either. Then if you do manage to get a fire, you have to have enough resources around to fuel it and get some coals for your giant sloth sirloin. If you camp in an area over time, eventually you will exhaust all the available firewood. Plus, every time you light a fire you risk other groups of people and predators poking around for that giant sloth sirloin of yours. If I've been getting by ok eating sloth sushi fresh off the kill for millions of years, why even risk it? Homo sapiens probably didn't have the gut microbiota to manage. Food poisoning could be a death sentence back then.
    - 7y ago
- forgotmypw 7y ago
  Making fire outdoors is super difficult indeed, just like nuclear fusion. And just like nuclear fusion, if you really fucking need it, and you dedicate a lot of effort to it, it can be done.
  - saberdancer 7y ago
    Levels of commitment and resources needed for fire and nuclear fusion are not really comparable. It's a really bad comparison.
  - perl4ever 7y ago
    Before you do anything, you need to be convinced it can be done, not just for a moment, but for long enough to learn or invent it. If you've never done something or seen it done, then it may be as remote as landing on the moon, even if there's one (simple) weird trick to it.
- Mikeb85 7y ago
  It's not that difficult. Hell, you can literally rub sticks together, even without a bow. There's plenty of vids on YouTube showing it.
  - thdrdt 7y ago
    Painting portraits is not that difficult. Hell, you can literally smear paint on a canvas, even without brush. There's plenty of vids on YouTube showing it.
    - Mikeb85 7y ago
      For real though, we made fire by hitting rocks together and rubbing sticks together in elementary school. It's not that hard.
      - animal531 7y ago
        Making a wheel isn't hard. You cut a tree and core it, add an axle and cap times two and you have a cart. Tame a horse, and you have transportation. People saying its easy isn't taking into consideration that this is knowledge that took a really long time to figure out and effectively pass on. Knowing that rubbing two of the right sticks together for long enough will produce friction that can lead to enough heat for a fire isn't something that a person with no knowledge easily comes up with by themselves.
        Mikeb85 7y ago
        No but I'm going to say that archaic humans, once they acquired that knowledge, probably passed it on religiously. It's literally the single most important discovery in the history of mankind.
      - lolc 7y ago
        Do you know which rocks you used and where to find them?
  - P_I_Staker 7y ago
- ada1981 7y ago
  Making fire was the equivalent of quantum computing, or any other bleeding edge technology humans endeavor to do.
greglindahl 7y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bow_drill https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bow_drill -- no iron needed.
- codesnik 7y ago
  There's no evidence of neanderthals using bows, though. Hard to imaging some people using bow drill but not using bow for hunt. Or we haven't find it yet, of course.
  - catalogia 7y ago
    > Hard to imaging some people using bow drill but not using bow for hunt. I don't think so. A bow drill has laxer construction requirements. I think the real hurdle is having the idea in the first place.
- maxerickson 7y ago
  Oe even https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_plough https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_plough Having never started a fire by hand, I think I'd not try to manufacture a bow before I had my fire going.
ivanhoe 7y ago
This article suggests they did: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/study-suggests-neanderthals-sparked-their-own-fire-180969714/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/study-suggests-nea...
- Zenst 7y ago
  Good find and thank you, was bashing my head against a wall trying to recall what I'd used to make sparks with flint as a kid.

by Zenst 7y ago

There are many examples of Neanderthal flint tools. With that in mind, I'm wondering if they didn't discover fire by hitting a flint with another rock with iron in it - producing sparks.

BurningFrog 7y ago

I'm possibly being a jerk, but... Fire didn't need discovering. It happens naturally from lightning, and you can speculate that our first "taming" of it was simply to grab it from a burning forest fire and then keep it alive for as long as possible. To make fire from scratch is a harder project. And what you really meant, I know :)

SomewhatLikely 7y ago
Discussion of that difficulty gap is threaded throughout the whole article.

hcarvalhoalves 7y ago

Even when you know how to make fire (and the most efficient way to make fire) it's still super difficult. Try going outdoor and making a bonfire from sparks. I don't think it's far fetched to think of it as bleeding-edge technology that only a few (of a certain species) had control over at the time. It would be similar to us meeting humanoid aliens and watching them master nuclear fusion.

PeterisP 7y ago
IDK, it's not that difficult, I've seen all kinds of outdoorsy organizations/events manage to teach preteen kids in less than an hour to start a fire with flint&steel + items they themselves gather in the forest. It's more difficult if it's been raining or everything is under snow, but I've seen adults do that (with some guiding words, though, not discovering on their own) quite quickly even if they've never done this before. It takes some effort and patience (mostly in preparing a good environment for a spark to light something small and dry on fire), and you need to know what are good conditions for a fire to start (which may not be obvious if you've never had fire), and you need a desire to make a fire as opposed to fearing it; so there's some barrier to overcome in inventing/attempting the process, but once that's done and you see how others are using and maintaining fire (even if the 'magic' initial process is obscured) then the technique would spread out like literal fire.
- hisnameismanuel 7y ago
  Steel is made using fire, and to use flint, you must be aware of its existence, its fire-marking properties, and where to find it.
- fred_is_fred 7y ago
  Where pray tell would the Neanderthals get the steel from?
- jazzyjackson 7y ago
  (This is more a reply to your replies) It takes practice but steel & flint isn't necessary, here's a video of a friend of mine who does what you're saying, teach kids survival skills. She uses particular kinds of wood you would need to learn to recognize but of course people have been doing it for a million years Warning: very enthusiastic audience; having been off the grid for a couple weeks, seeing a fire started by hand was big entertainment https://youtu.be/d_HGO31E0sI https://youtu.be/d_HGO31E0sI
- WalterBright 7y ago
  Knowing that fire is possible to make from sparks is the biggest factor.
- asdff 7y ago
  Go watch a youtube video then try to go make a primitive fire. Collecting the right fire starting material is not always a possibility, let alone the flint. If it rained the day before you might not be able to make a fire even with the right starting tools. If it's cold or windy it might not happen either. Then if you do manage to get a fire, you have to have enough resources around to fuel it and get some coals for your giant sloth sirloin. If you camp in an area over time, eventually you will exhaust all the available firewood. Plus, every time you light a fire you risk other groups of people and predators poking around for that giant sloth sirloin of yours. If I've been getting by ok eating sloth sushi fresh off the kill for millions of years, why even risk it? Homo sapiens probably didn't have the gut microbiota to manage. Food poisoning could be a death sentence back then.
  - 7y ago
forgotmypw 7y ago
Making fire outdoors is super difficult indeed, just like nuclear fusion. And just like nuclear fusion, if you really fucking need it, and you dedicate a lot of effort to it, it can be done.
- saberdancer 7y ago
  Levels of commitment and resources needed for fire and nuclear fusion are not really comparable. It's a really bad comparison.
- perl4ever 7y ago
  Before you do anything, you need to be convinced it can be done, not just for a moment, but for long enough to learn or invent it. If you've never done something or seen it done, then it may be as remote as landing on the moon, even if there's one (simple) weird trick to it.
Mikeb85 7y ago
It's not that difficult. Hell, you can literally rub sticks together, even without a bow. There's plenty of vids on YouTube showing it.
- thdrdt 7y ago
  Painting portraits is not that difficult. Hell, you can literally smear paint on a canvas, even without brush. There's plenty of vids on YouTube showing it.
  - Mikeb85 7y ago
    For real though, we made fire by hitting rocks together and rubbing sticks together in elementary school. It's not that hard.
    - animal531 7y ago
      Making a wheel isn't hard. You cut a tree and core it, add an axle and cap times two and you have a cart. Tame a horse, and you have transportation. People saying its easy isn't taking into consideration that this is knowledge that took a really long time to figure out and effectively pass on. Knowing that rubbing two of the right sticks together for long enough will produce friction that can lead to enough heat for a fire isn't something that a person with no knowledge easily comes up with by themselves.
      - Mikeb85 7y ago
        No but I'm going to say that archaic humans, once they acquired that knowledge, probably passed it on religiously. It's literally the single most important discovery in the history of mankind.
    - lolc 7y ago
      Do you know which rocks you used and where to find them?
- P_I_Staker 7y ago
ada1981 7y ago
Making fire was the equivalent of quantum computing, or any other bleeding edge technology humans endeavor to do.

greglindahl 7y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bow_drill https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bow_drill -- no iron needed.

codesnik 7y ago
There's no evidence of neanderthals using bows, though. Hard to imaging some people using bow drill but not using bow for hunt. Or we haven't find it yet, of course.
- catalogia 7y ago
  > Hard to imaging some people using bow drill but not using bow for hunt. I don't think so. A bow drill has laxer construction requirements. I think the real hurdle is having the idea in the first place.
maxerickson 7y ago
Oe even https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_plough https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_plough Having never started a fire by hand, I think I'd not try to manufacture a bow before I had my fire going.

ivanhoe 7y ago

This article suggests they did: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/study-suggests-neanderthals-sparked-their-own-fire-180969714/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/study-suggests-nea...

Zenst 7y ago
Good find and thank you, was bashing my head against a wall trying to recall what I'd used to make sparks with flint as a kid.