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Anything other than solitary is torture. Exposure to other criminals is cruel. Having a cellmate who could kill you in your sleep is especially shocking; sleep

Anything other than solitary is torture. Exposure to other criminals is cruel. Having a cellmate who could kill you in your sleep is especially shocking; sleep deprivation is unquestionably torture.

shakna 7y ago
Solitary confinement increases the chance of heart attack, hypertension and stroke by 30% [0]. That's because it is a stressful environment that people are not meant to function in. That's 30% up when compared to those prisoners who might be fearing that their cell might kill them. Solitary is more stressful than that environment, objectively. [0] https://massivesci.com/notes/cardiovascular-health-comparison-solitary-confinement-prison-health/ https://massivesci.com/notes/cardiovascular-health-compariso...
- souprock 7y ago
  The study applies to "a third of individuals in solitary confinement". I guess those were the extroverts. What about the other two thirds of individuals in solitary confinement? It seems likely that those people don't support the desired conclusion. Whatever the case may be, there is also the matter of them being a bad influence on each other.
  - shakna 7y ago
    1/3rd of people is more than statistically significant, so yes, it does support that conclusion. That solitary is bad for your health, and worse than general prison life.
    - monoideism 7y ago
      > 1/3rd of people is more than statistically significant, so yes, it does support that conclusion. It decidedly does not support the conclusion. The percent of the population studies were those who had filed a lawsuit about solitary confinement. This is the definition of a biased sample.
      - shakna 7y ago
        > Anything other than solitary is torture. This point is completely proven to be false by the fact that people are having their QOL indicators trashed.
        monoideism 7y ago
        1) You're replying to the wrong comment. 2) Your basis for "This point is completely proven to be false by the fact that people are having their QOL indicators trashed" is what? The statistically-biased study you posted?
        shakna 7y ago
        > 1) You're replying to the wrong comment. Are you not in this thread? [0] [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22176652 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22176652 > 2) Your basis for "This point is completely proven to be false by the fact that people are having their QOL indicators trashed" is what? The statistically-biased study you posted? You didn't like that study? And thus refuse to have any other conversation? Fine. Lets have some more. [0] https://www.themarshallproject.org/documents/3234404-Aiming-to-Reduce-Time-In-Cell-Correctional https://www.themarshallproject.org/documents/3234404-Aiming-... - The government knows it is harmful, and is tracking and pushing for reduction of its use. [1] https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2752350 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle... - It increases mortality after release. (Study where N=229,297). [2] https://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/reports/us1012ForUpload.pdf https://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/reports/us1012ForUpl... - It stunts the growth of juveniles and leads to a variety of mental health problems. [3] http://steinhardt.nyu.edu/appsych/opus/issues/2015/spring/corcoran http://steinhardt.nyu.edu/appsych/opus/issues/2015/spring/co... - Here's an earlier study that also covers the hyptension systems already mentioned. [4] https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/cbm.627 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/cbm.627 - In juveniles, it increases recidivism, and causes mental and physical health problems. QoL indicators from all studies are showing problems. Solitary Confinement is above the threshold where it can be safely used against any one person.
- monoideism 7y ago
  > Solitary is more stressful than that environment, objectively. That entirely depends on the person. Go talk to a corrections officer. Some folks go mad in solitary, others find relief from the daily threat of physical violence and do OK.
  - shakna 7y ago
    Countering data with anecdotes is useless. It doesn't aid any discussion. Any piece of data can have a contrary anecdote. Gravity can have anecdotes that say it doesn't exist. Some may well find solitary helpful. However, if the vast majority of data finds that it is harmful, physically and mentally, then we should not use those outliers to gauge whether or not something is effective.
    - monoideism 7y ago
      Question: do you know anyone who has served in prison? What do you propose to do with those inmates with life sentences who are raping and murdering in open population? And thank god protective custody (in same place/conditions as solitary) is available, for the sake of the people at risk of rape and murder in open population. I don't doubt that living in a small area has measurable effect on the mental and cardiovascular health of many inmates. But what is the alternative? Let those inmates live in open population? Try for a moment to imagine being a physically weak inmate in a prison where some psychopath has decided you're a snitch. Can you imagine the fear that induces? And then when the violence happens, the weak inmate will be lucky to come out alive. Seriously, that's a real question. What's the alternative for murderous, raping inmates who pose an active thread to inmates and wardens? Maximum security prisons have many of them. Where do they go with no solitary?
      - shakna 7y ago
        > Question: do you know anyone who has served in prison? Yes, but that's irrelevant to the conversation at hand. That solitary is torture and hurts people far more than it helps them. That that's what the science says. As I've said, anecdotes are irrelevant. Data is. > But what is the alternative? Let those inmates live in open population? > ... > Maximum security prisons have many of them. Where do they go with no solitary? Maximum security prisons don't just have the two extremes of solitary and open population. Normal prisons usually have more than gen pop and solitary. If rehabilitation is the goal, and not just punishment, then prisons tend to be less violent overall. These statistical outliers who go around attacking everyone also reduce in frequency.
bakuninsbart 7y ago
An inmate died after being locked in a scalding shower for two hours. His guards won’t be charged. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/03/20/an-inmate-died-after-being-locked-in-a-scalding-shower-for-two-hours-his-guards-wont-be-charged/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/03/2... Just one of the many cases of institutionalised torture. And it is the states, the prisons responsibility to find a humane way to incarcerate people, if you fail so miserably at it, it just shows how morally bankrupt your country is.

Anything other than solitary is torture. Exposure to other criminals is cruel. Having a cellmate who could kill you in your sleep is especially shocking; sleep deprivation is unquestionably torture.

shakna 7y ago

Solitary confinement increases the chance of heart attack, hypertension and stroke by 30% [0]. That's because it is a stressful environment that people are not meant to function in. That's 30% up when compared to those prisoners who might be fearing that their cell might kill them. Solitary is more stressful than that environment, objectively. [0] https://massivesci.com/notes/cardiovascular-health-comparison-solitary-confinement-prison-health/ https://massivesci.com/notes/cardiovascular-health-compariso...

souprock 7y ago
The study applies to "a third of individuals in solitary confinement". I guess those were the extroverts. What about the other two thirds of individuals in solitary confinement? It seems likely that those people don't support the desired conclusion. Whatever the case may be, there is also the matter of them being a bad influence on each other.
- shakna 7y ago
  1/3rd of people is more than statistically significant, so yes, it does support that conclusion. That solitary is bad for your health, and worse than general prison life.
  - monoideism 7y ago
    > 1/3rd of people is more than statistically significant, so yes, it does support that conclusion. It decidedly does not support the conclusion. The percent of the population studies were those who had filed a lawsuit about solitary confinement. This is the definition of a biased sample.
    - shakna 7y ago
      > Anything other than solitary is torture. This point is completely proven to be false by the fact that people are having their QOL indicators trashed.
      - monoideism 7y ago
        1) You're replying to the wrong comment. 2) Your basis for "This point is completely proven to be false by the fact that people are having their QOL indicators trashed" is what? The statistically-biased study you posted?
        shakna 7y ago
        > 1) You're replying to the wrong comment. Are you not in this thread? [0] [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22176652 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22176652 > 2) Your basis for "This point is completely proven to be false by the fact that people are having their QOL indicators trashed" is what? The statistically-biased study you posted? You didn't like that study? And thus refuse to have any other conversation? Fine. Lets have some more. [0] https://www.themarshallproject.org/documents/3234404-Aiming-to-Reduce-Time-In-Cell-Correctional https://www.themarshallproject.org/documents/3234404-Aiming-... - The government knows it is harmful, and is tracking and pushing for reduction of its use. [1] https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2752350 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle... - It increases mortality after release. (Study where N=229,297). [2] https://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/reports/us1012ForUpload.pdf https://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/reports/us1012ForUpl... - It stunts the growth of juveniles and leads to a variety of mental health problems. [3] http://steinhardt.nyu.edu/appsych/opus/issues/2015/spring/corcoran http://steinhardt.nyu.edu/appsych/opus/issues/2015/spring/co... - Here's an earlier study that also covers the hyptension systems already mentioned. [4] https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/cbm.627 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/cbm.627 - In juveniles, it increases recidivism, and causes mental and physical health problems. QoL indicators from all studies are showing problems. Solitary Confinement is above the threshold where it can be safely used against any one person.
monoideism 7y ago
> Solitary is more stressful than that environment, objectively. That entirely depends on the person. Go talk to a corrections officer. Some folks go mad in solitary, others find relief from the daily threat of physical violence and do OK.
- shakna 7y ago
  Countering data with anecdotes is useless. It doesn't aid any discussion. Any piece of data can have a contrary anecdote. Gravity can have anecdotes that say it doesn't exist. Some may well find solitary helpful. However, if the vast majority of data finds that it is harmful, physically and mentally, then we should not use those outliers to gauge whether or not something is effective.
  - monoideism 7y ago
    Question: do you know anyone who has served in prison? What do you propose to do with those inmates with life sentences who are raping and murdering in open population? And thank god protective custody (in same place/conditions as solitary) is available, for the sake of the people at risk of rape and murder in open population. I don't doubt that living in a small area has measurable effect on the mental and cardiovascular health of many inmates. But what is the alternative? Let those inmates live in open population? Try for a moment to imagine being a physically weak inmate in a prison where some psychopath has decided you're a snitch. Can you imagine the fear that induces? And then when the violence happens, the weak inmate will be lucky to come out alive. Seriously, that's a real question. What's the alternative for murderous, raping inmates who pose an active thread to inmates and wardens? Maximum security prisons have many of them. Where do they go with no solitary?
    - shakna 7y ago
      > Question: do you know anyone who has served in prison? Yes, but that's irrelevant to the conversation at hand. That solitary is torture and hurts people far more than it helps them. That that's what the science says. As I've said, anecdotes are irrelevant. Data is. > But what is the alternative? Let those inmates live in open population? > ... > Maximum security prisons have many of them. Where do they go with no solitary? Maximum security prisons don't just have the two extremes of solitary and open population. Normal prisons usually have more than gen pop and solitary. If rehabilitation is the goal, and not just punishment, then prisons tend to be less violent overall. These statistical outliers who go around attacking everyone also reduce in frequency.

bakuninsbart 7y ago

An inmate died after being locked in a scalding shower for two hours. His guards won’t be charged. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/03/20/an-inmate-died-after-being-locked-in-a-scalding-shower-for-two-hours-his-guards-wont-be-charged/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/03/2... Just one of the many cases of institutionalised torture. And it is the states, the prisons responsibility to find a humane way to incarcerate people, if you fail so miserably at it, it just shows how morally bankrupt your country is.