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>The victim must have severely diminished critical thinking ability for the scam to work. This is why lists of "elderly owned" phone numbers go for so much on

>The victim must have severely diminished critical thinking ability for the scam to work. This is why lists of "elderly owned" phone numbers go for so much on the black/gray market. The cost of running these scams is so low that they spam everyone with their bait, but I suspect the real cash cows are elderly people who have large savings / Social Security checks. Part of the problem is that it is super difficult to teach a parent or grandparent what inspect element even is without delving deep into Web infrastructure and how browsers work...very complicated, technical explanations. Simplification works to a point, but if you just tell them "don't trust what you see on the screen" they'll ignore actually important warnings, blast through alert boxes faster than they can read them, and when your next lesson includes "look for the green padlock next to each address" they'll just get even more confused since, you know, you just told them not to trust anything.

ryandrake 7y ago
You don’t need to teach them about inspect element. You just need to teach them today’s basic rule of thumb: if someone contacts you over the phone or Internet asking you to do something, no matter what it is or how serious the person sounds... just don’t do it.
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  Your suggestion, while well intentioned, does not fully appreciate the scope of the problem as it relates to elderly social engineering and the inherent weaknesses (fear, loneliness, mental deterioration) that are leveraged by attackers.
  - vic-traill 7y ago
    This. Loneliness is powerful; I suspect that if you're lonely enough, even a scam call conversation has appeal. There are even suggestions that loneliness has physical implications [0]. My father suffers from vascular dementia. He's pretty agreeable these days (a lot more so than he used to be). Fortunately an underlying suspicion of strangers calling to talk about money on the telephone has triumphed thus far, but I do expect that this balance will change over time. [0] https://www.nia.nih.gov/news/social-isolation-loneliness-older-people-pose-health-risks https://www.nia.nih.gov/news/social-isolation-loneliness-old...
- noveltyaccount 7y ago
  I've legitimately lost a credit card and had my bank call me about fraudulent transactions. I didn't know the card was missing until they called.
  - mcv 7y ago
    As mjevans says above, it's fine if they tell you there's a problem, but you should never try to solve that problem over the phone based on a call by a stranger. Unless you know exactly what you're doing, what you should do in the case of any over-the-phone problem like that, is first contact someone you trust and knows what they're doing. Your own bank, an expert of your choosing (and not chosen by the stranger on the phone), or a knowledgeable friend or family member. Never trust the stranger on the phone.
  - kiddico 7y ago
    To expand on the banking scenario: If you get a call about a stolen/lost credit card don't call the number back (or use a number the caller provides.) Instead lookup the fraud/accounts contact number for the bank and call them yourself. - aka start the interaction with known good information
    - smichel17 7y ago
      ..and for those who might not be comfortable trying to find this information on the internet, it's almost always listed on your [credit/debit/atm/etc] card itself.
    - pale-hands 7y ago
      Unfortunately there's a scam for that,apparently. The scam caller tells the victim to call their bank, but doesn't hang up. The victim hangs up, calls the bank, the scammer is still on the line.
      - maccard 7y ago
        If you're concerned about that, wait a minute. I can't find any discussion of the scam online, but I would hazard a guess that this isn't really an attack vector these days.
- mjevans 7y ago
  Bank branches mostly exist as an anti-fraud device for mortals. The lesson is, someone call tell you there IS a problem on the phone, but don't trust ANYTHING else, not even the description of the problem. The absolute only thing they're allowed to tell you is that you need to visit your banking provider tomorrow, not some other bank but your own bank, with only family, and ask what the actual problem is.
tonyedgecombe 7y ago
I just told my parents not to use internet banking. They are quite happy with that.
- dawnerd 7y ago
  That won’t prevent the “irs is going to arrest you unless you give is a steam gift card” scams.
  - tonyedgecombe 7y ago
    I don't expect it to solve every problem :)
dawnerd 7y ago
Re teaching them inspect element: the scammers use a driver they install to black out the screen “for security” of course so the victim doesn’t actually see what they’re doing. Kitboga and others stop the install but act like it’s blacked out when asked about it. Really all they need to learn is that gift cards are not payment. Also the sites that allow gift card reselling need to be held a little accountable too. If someone is going on there and listing thousands of dollars of gift cards that should be a huge red flag.
- slumdev 7y ago
  > If someone is going on there and listing thousands of dollars of gift cards that should be a huge red flag. There are legitimate reasons for doing this. Buying gift cards using a rewards-earning credit card and reselling them online is a great way to rack up airline/hotel points if the gift card can be sold for anything close enough to face value.
  - dawnerd 7y ago
    Never said it should be banned, just flagged. People doing that should be able to provide receipts to prove they got them legitimately.
apostacy 7y ago
> This is why lists of "elderly owned" phone numbers go for so much on the black/gray market. My grandmother started developing dementia about three years ago. What is really disturbing, is that the scammers somehow figured it out about a year before her symptoms started really presenting themselves. It eventually got to the point where they were calling and asking for her by name several times a month. She has a fairly large retirement fund, and I think they may be try to get access to it specifically. I am horrified at how sophisticated these operations have become. When they had her on the phone, they must have asked her lots of questions that they used to make a dossier of her, and have been passing this dossier from scam agency to agency. It is clearly a call center calling her, and I have experimented with them. I ask them to call back, and they asked when would be a good time to call back. And then a different person returns the call, clearly reading from a script and already knowing personal information about her. One thing I am concerned about is that they are simply pumping her for information, so that they can impersonate her and try to initiate a money transfer directly with the bank. It is so disturbing that there are people out there who know who my grandmother is, and are trying to take advantage of her.
- mekane8 7y ago
  The YouTuber Kitboga mentioned above got into the scambaiting thing because someone took advantage of his grandmother suffering from dementia. It really is a terribly abusive con, and one can learn a lot about their methods and intents from watching his channel.

ryandrake 7y ago

You don’t need to teach them about inspect element. You just need to teach them today’s basic rule of thumb: if someone contacts you over the phone or Internet asking you to do something, no matter what it is or how serious the person sounds... just don’t do it.

toomuchtodo 7y ago
Your suggestion, while well intentioned, does not fully appreciate the scope of the problem as it relates to elderly social engineering and the inherent weaknesses (fear, loneliness, mental deterioration) that are leveraged by attackers.
- vic-traill 7y ago
  This. Loneliness is powerful; I suspect that if you're lonely enough, even a scam call conversation has appeal. There are even suggestions that loneliness has physical implications [0]. My father suffers from vascular dementia. He's pretty agreeable these days (a lot more so than he used to be). Fortunately an underlying suspicion of strangers calling to talk about money on the telephone has triumphed thus far, but I do expect that this balance will change over time. [0] https://www.nia.nih.gov/news/social-isolation-loneliness-older-people-pose-health-risks https://www.nia.nih.gov/news/social-isolation-loneliness-old...
noveltyaccount 7y ago
I've legitimately lost a credit card and had my bank call me about fraudulent transactions. I didn't know the card was missing until they called.
- mcv 7y ago
  As mjevans says above, it's fine if they tell you there's a problem, but you should never try to solve that problem over the phone based on a call by a stranger. Unless you know exactly what you're doing, what you should do in the case of any over-the-phone problem like that, is first contact someone you trust and knows what they're doing. Your own bank, an expert of your choosing (and not chosen by the stranger on the phone), or a knowledgeable friend or family member. Never trust the stranger on the phone.
- kiddico 7y ago
  To expand on the banking scenario: If you get a call about a stolen/lost credit card don't call the number back (or use a number the caller provides.) Instead lookup the fraud/accounts contact number for the bank and call them yourself. - aka start the interaction with known good information
  - smichel17 7y ago
    ..and for those who might not be comfortable trying to find this information on the internet, it's almost always listed on your [credit/debit/atm/etc] card itself.
  - pale-hands 7y ago
    Unfortunately there's a scam for that,apparently. The scam caller tells the victim to call their bank, but doesn't hang up. The victim hangs up, calls the bank, the scammer is still on the line.
    - maccard 7y ago
      If you're concerned about that, wait a minute. I can't find any discussion of the scam online, but I would hazard a guess that this isn't really an attack vector these days.
mjevans 7y ago
Bank branches mostly exist as an anti-fraud device for mortals. The lesson is, someone call tell you there IS a problem on the phone, but don't trust ANYTHING else, not even the description of the problem. The absolute only thing they're allowed to tell you is that you need to visit your banking provider tomorrow, not some other bank but your own bank, with only family, and ask what the actual problem is.

tonyedgecombe 7y ago

I just told my parents not to use internet banking. They are quite happy with that.

dawnerd 7y ago
That won’t prevent the “irs is going to arrest you unless you give is a steam gift card” scams.
- tonyedgecombe 7y ago
  I don't expect it to solve every problem :)

dawnerd 7y ago

Re teaching them inspect element: the scammers use a driver they install to black out the screen “for security” of course so the victim doesn’t actually see what they’re doing. Kitboga and others stop the install but act like it’s blacked out when asked about it. Really all they need to learn is that gift cards are not payment. Also the sites that allow gift card reselling need to be held a little accountable too. If someone is going on there and listing thousands of dollars of gift cards that should be a huge red flag.

slumdev 7y ago
> If someone is going on there and listing thousands of dollars of gift cards that should be a huge red flag. There are legitimate reasons for doing this. Buying gift cards using a rewards-earning credit card and reselling them online is a great way to rack up airline/hotel points if the gift card can be sold for anything close enough to face value.
- dawnerd 7y ago
  Never said it should be banned, just flagged. People doing that should be able to provide receipts to prove they got them legitimately.

apostacy 7y ago

> This is why lists of "elderly owned" phone numbers go for so much on the black/gray market. My grandmother started developing dementia about three years ago. What is really disturbing, is that the scammers somehow figured it out about a year before her symptoms started really presenting themselves. It eventually got to the point where they were calling and asking for her by name several times a month. She has a fairly large retirement fund, and I think they may be try to get access to it specifically. I am horrified at how sophisticated these operations have become. When they had her on the phone, they must have asked her lots of questions that they used to make a dossier of her, and have been passing this dossier from scam agency to agency. It is clearly a call center calling her, and I have experimented with them. I ask them to call back, and they asked when would be a good time to call back. And then a different person returns the call, clearly reading from a script and already knowing personal information about her. One thing I am concerned about is that they are simply pumping her for information, so that they can impersonate her and try to initiate a money transfer directly with the bank. It is so disturbing that there are people out there who know who my grandmother is, and are trying to take advantage of her.

mekane8 7y ago
The YouTuber Kitboga mentioned above got into the scambaiting thing because someone took advantage of his grandmother suffering from dementia. It really is a terribly abusive con, and one can learn a lot about their methods and intents from watching his channel.