9 ms·

Portland, ME is a place where within an hour you could walk from the suburbs of the city to downtown to the very end of the peninsola. I'm really glad he turne

Portland, ME is a place where within an hour you could walk from the suburbs of the city to downtown to the very end of the peninsola. I'm really glad he turned his life around, but I'm also terrified at the thought that someone got shot at a place where I've walked countless times at night after school. The Old Port is a very small district, and life just seems ridiculously safe there. I think ideally this is the path that should be encouraged for inmates. We already spend so much feeding and housing them, what's more to try to educate them some more? Obviously not all inmates fit this description such as the Unibomber, but it seems like job training or preperation for getting degrees seems like a better investment than letting them out of prison without anyelse to do but more crime.

Zancarius 7y ago
> I think ideally this is the path that should be encouraged for inmates. We already spend so much feeding and housing them, what's more to try to educate them some more? Part of the problem, in my opinion (which may be wrong; this is just how I view it), is that our penal system focuses on punitive measures rather than rehabilitative. It's the same for drug addicts. While rehabilitation might be most costly upfront, the reduced risk of repeat offenses would almost certainly pay for itself, not to mention the related drop in crime stemming from such activities. I recognize it's not perfect, but it's certainly better than throwing otherwise non-violent offenders into jail with no hope and no help.
- tropo 7y ago
  Our system isn't really punitive or rehabilitative, though we pay lip service to both. (truly punitive would involve torture, and truly rehabilitative is simply impossible) What we are really doing is called incapacitation. For a period of time, we eliminate the possibility of performing the crime. You can't rob a bank if you can't get to a bank. If a person does a mugging every week, but that person spends 80% of grown-up life in prison, we reduce muggings by 80%.
  - MrsPeaches 7y ago
    This is an interesting thought though the math in final sentence feels off.
    - jackfoxy 7y ago
      we reduce muggings by 80% of that individual's potential to commit muggings
      - tropo 7y ago
        Yes. We also keep other individuals in prison. If they are similar (once per week, 80% in prison) then the 80% applies in general. The numbers vary and the specific values are unimportant to understanding the basic idea. The point is that keeping criminals away from victims is how we actually reduce crime.
  - dunstad 7y ago
    Gonna be honest, it doesn't sound like you have a lot of relevant experience on the effects of incarceration. I'm no expert either, but prison is a lot more than just making sure people can't commit crimes. I also think reasonable people could disagree about whether the treatment of some of our prisoners constitutes torture or not.
  - dfsegoat 7y ago
    How about $10-13k in fees / mandatory education classes for a DUI in California? That is pretty punitive AND crippling. The classes are given by for profit companies. Also does nothing to stop the small percentage of hardcore repeat dui offenders. They still find a way to drive.
    - crankylinuxuser 7y ago
      > How about $10-13k in fees / mandatory education classes for a DUI in California? That is pretty punitive AND crippling. Slate Star Codex talks about that in their Moloch article. Long story short, no politician can be for the reduction of these sorts of things. The first one that tries will be lambasted in public when someone who did less fees or less 'for-profit training' has another bender and kills little Timmy. Sentencing will always go up, unless acted upon by actors who aren't subject to voting forces. So will fees and fines and plenty of other torturous actions.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
shard972 7y ago
> I think ideally this is the path that should be encouraged for inmates. What about the people who just refuse or unwilling to go along? Everyone agrees we can do more helping the brightest in prison turn their lives around but at some point, your housing the worst of society, your going to have people who at best are just not going to better themselves through education.
Davidzheng 7y ago
Agree with your point but is there a reason you used the Unibomber as your example? He was a math professor at Berkeley, surely if anyone in prison can produce good research he probably can...
- solveit 7y ago
  I think the point was that you probably couldn't rehabilitate him by teaching him maths.
  - faceplanted 7y ago
    Damn good reason to teach him some philosophy then,
    - bifrost 7y ago
      Pretty sure he already has a path there...
- JCharante 7y ago
  I used the Unibomber as an example because, like solveit said, lack of an education or jobs available to him probably wasn't part of the reason why he chose to commit crimes (out of desperation).
kstenerud 7y ago
> I'm also terrified at the thought that someone got shot at a place where I've walked countless times at night after school. Why would you be terrified by this? There were 36 homicides last year in Portland and 49 traffic deaths, yet almost nobody says they're terrified of cars. And even of these 36 homicides, most were perpetrated by someone the person knew. Studies put it at around 90% where the person killed knew the attacker rather than just someone unlucky enough to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. So you're 13 times more likely to die from a car than from a homicide in Portland if you're not involved with dangerous people. And yes, you're right: life is ridiculously safe there.
- bifrost 7y ago
  Its a nonsequitor but Its pretty absurd that people are much less afraid of dying by car or drowning than by being shot. The hysteria around it is pretty insane.

Zancarius 7y ago

> I think ideally this is the path that should be encouraged for inmates. We already spend so much feeding and housing them, what's more to try to educate them some more? Part of the problem, in my opinion (which may be wrong; this is just how I view it), is that our penal system focuses on punitive measures rather than rehabilitative. It's the same for drug addicts. While rehabilitation might be most costly upfront, the reduced risk of repeat offenses would almost certainly pay for itself, not to mention the related drop in crime stemming from such activities. I recognize it's not perfect, but it's certainly better than throwing otherwise non-violent offenders into jail with no hope and no help.

tropo 7y ago
Our system isn't really punitive or rehabilitative, though we pay lip service to both. (truly punitive would involve torture, and truly rehabilitative is simply impossible) What we are really doing is called incapacitation. For a period of time, we eliminate the possibility of performing the crime. You can't rob a bank if you can't get to a bank. If a person does a mugging every week, but that person spends 80% of grown-up life in prison, we reduce muggings by 80%.
- MrsPeaches 7y ago
  This is an interesting thought though the math in final sentence feels off.
  - jackfoxy 7y ago
    we reduce muggings by 80% of that individual's potential to commit muggings
    - tropo 7y ago
      Yes. We also keep other individuals in prison. If they are similar (once per week, 80% in prison) then the 80% applies in general. The numbers vary and the specific values are unimportant to understanding the basic idea. The point is that keeping criminals away from victims is how we actually reduce crime.
- dunstad 7y ago
  Gonna be honest, it doesn't sound like you have a lot of relevant experience on the effects of incarceration. I'm no expert either, but prison is a lot more than just making sure people can't commit crimes. I also think reasonable people could disagree about whether the treatment of some of our prisoners constitutes torture or not.
- dfsegoat 7y ago
  How about $10-13k in fees / mandatory education classes for a DUI in California? That is pretty punitive AND crippling. The classes are given by for profit companies. Also does nothing to stop the small percentage of hardcore repeat dui offenders. They still find a way to drive.
  - crankylinuxuser 7y ago
    > How about $10-13k in fees / mandatory education classes for a DUI in California? That is pretty punitive AND crippling. Slate Star Codex talks about that in their Moloch article. Long story short, no politician can be for the reduction of these sorts of things. The first one that tries will be lambasted in public when someone who did less fees or less 'for-profit training' has another bender and kills little Timmy. Sentencing will always go up, unless acted upon by actors who aren't subject to voting forces. So will fees and fines and plenty of other torturous actions.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

shard972 7y ago

> I think ideally this is the path that should be encouraged for inmates. What about the people who just refuse or unwilling to go along? Everyone agrees we can do more helping the brightest in prison turn their lives around but at some point, your housing the worst of society, your going to have people who at best are just not going to better themselves through education.

Davidzheng 7y ago

Agree with your point but is there a reason you used the Unibomber as your example? He was a math professor at Berkeley, surely if anyone in prison can produce good research he probably can...

solveit 7y ago
I think the point was that you probably couldn't rehabilitate him by teaching him maths.
- faceplanted 7y ago
  Damn good reason to teach him some philosophy then,
  - bifrost 7y ago
    Pretty sure he already has a path there...
JCharante 7y ago
I used the Unibomber as an example because, like solveit said, lack of an education or jobs available to him probably wasn't part of the reason why he chose to commit crimes (out of desperation).

kstenerud 7y ago

> I'm also terrified at the thought that someone got shot at a place where I've walked countless times at night after school. Why would you be terrified by this? There were 36 homicides last year in Portland and 49 traffic deaths, yet almost nobody says they're terrified of cars. And even of these 36 homicides, most were perpetrated by someone the person knew. Studies put it at around 90% where the person killed knew the attacker rather than just someone unlucky enough to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. So you're 13 times more likely to die from a car than from a homicide in Portland if you're not involved with dangerous people. And yes, you're right: life is ridiculously safe there.

bifrost 7y ago
Its a nonsequitor but Its pretty absurd that people are much less afraid of dying by car or drowning than by being shot. The hysteria around it is pretty insane.