7 ms·

It's time to move to what criminal reform activists call 'restorative justice'. We lock you up, possibly contract your labor to some shady organization, and don

It's time to move to what criminal reform activists call 'restorative justice'. We lock you up, possibly contract your labor to some shady organization, and don't provide enough tools for those who've served their time to get back on their feet and contribute. We can see these effects in the economy if you look closely, the labor participation rate among men is declining, most new jobs (which are service jobs) go to women, millions of men are missing in our society due to this system which throws away human capital. For what?

throwaway894345 7y ago
> We can see these effects in the economy if you look closely, the labor participation rate among men is declining, most new jobs (which are service jobs) go to women, millions of men are missing in our society due to this system which throws away human capital. For what? Is that the cause? I've always heard it was due to changes in education policy/practice that resulted in lower graduation rates for males (I know some people here will reflexively think I'm challenging something; I'm not, this is a genuine question, and for the little I know about it, restorative justice sounds like a pretty good idea).
- 40acres 7y ago
  I don't believe the cause has been definitely described. Education plays a part, the transition to a service economy plays a part, perhaps even video games play a part. I do believe that it's clear that labor force participation among males has been declining in past decades while the number of folks incarcerated has risen and that there is no doubt a relation between the two.
  - throwaway894345 7y ago
    > labor force participation among males has been declining in past decades while the number of folks incarcerated has risen and that there is no doubt a relation between the two Would be interesting to look at male education outcomes, labor force participation, and incarceration rates and compare them against their female equivalents. I know for fact that female education and labor force outcomes have been improving at the expense of male outcomes, but I'm not sure about female incarceration rates. My guess is that they are also increasing, but perhaps not at the same rate as male rates?
- booboolayla 7y ago
  It's almost as if feminism was about revenge and grabbing power, as opposed to "equality." Just wait until feminist "corrections" of dating/mating practices come to fruition, I'm afraid the consequences will be drastic and far-reaching.
- mobilefriendly 7y ago
  The war against boys was won. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2000/05/the-war-against-boys/304659/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2000/05/the-war...
gamblor956 7y ago
A large part of this is video games and the legalization of pot. Why work when you can get high and play games all day? Citation: https://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-video-games-jobs-emploment-20160923-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-video-games-jobs-... It's one of more than two dozen...
- callinyouin 7y ago
  Citation definitely needed. At the end of prohibition, one could have just as easily said something like "Why work when you can drink and play cards/horseshoes/whatever all day?"
  - gamblor956 7y ago
    https://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-video-games-jobs-emploment-20160923-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-video-games-jobs-...
    - munk-a 7y ago
      > A few decades ago, an unemployed person might be stuck on the couch watching TV, isolated and depressed. Today, cheap or free services such as Facebook, Snapchat, YouTube and Netflix provide seemingly endless entertainment options and an easy connection to the outside world. Video games, in particular, provide a strong community and a sense of achievement that, for some, real-world jobs lack. I mean, this is absolutely equivalent to "Young people today aren't doing any work because it's so easy to entertain themselves - the wide availability of books is ruining society." Reading deep into the article, there aren't any specific income related analysis and their examples are all people that are living at home - so these are people who have the financial freedom to choose not to work (possibly by placing an undue burden on their parents). The gender split is interesting but might tie back to the same source, next time you're getting lunch with coworkers try asking how many chores people did as a kid, among my coworkers the women had much more responsibility (including one coworker who was responsible for making sure her brother did his chores and would have to do them for him if he shirked them). I think this is much more of an educational issue and much less something tied to video games... I'm also seeing no links to mj other than the broad assumptions that anyone who has ever touched mj is lazy.
munk-a 7y ago
> We can see these effects in the economy if you look closely, the labor participation rate among men is declining, most new jobs (which are service jobs) go to women, millions of men are missing in our society due to this system which throws away human capital. For what? Unless you think the declining labour participation is due to people being incarcerated I'm not certain how it's related? I, morally, think that the only justifiable punishment for a crime is what is needed to prevent recurrence - either through the same societal member or from other societal members. The fact that murder is highly punished definitely dissuades some proportion of potential murderers from murdering. From what I've seen of the efficacy of restorative justice I'm excited - it seems to greatly reduce recidivism while also lowering societal ostracization and coming home from jail to find a community that rejects you can directly contribute to higher recidivism. That all said, I also think that's it's pretty reprehensible how we treat criminals today - subcontracting out housing and care has been shown to greatly increase recidivism which increases costs in the long run. I think this stance is acceptable if you consider all criminals to be lost causes that are just running out the clock on their lives since they're defective, in such a case minimizing costs/day with the assumption that the term of punishment is fixed serves to minimize the cost to society... But I disagree strongly with the assumption that all or, even, most criminals are lost causes.
kiliantics 7y ago
Beyond restorative justice, there's also transformative justice that people in radical circles advocate for: https://savethekidsgroup.org/defining-transformative-justice/ https://savethekidsgroup.org/defining-transformative-justice...
harimau777 7y ago
I could see restorative justice being effective for many crimes. However, for crimes resulting in permanent harm (murder, maiming, rape, etc.) I don't see how restorative justice can work if the harm cannot be restored.

throwaway894345 7y ago

40acres 7y ago
I don't believe the cause has been definitely described. Education plays a part, the transition to a service economy plays a part, perhaps even video games play a part. I do believe that it's clear that labor force participation among males has been declining in past decades while the number of folks incarcerated has risen and that there is no doubt a relation between the two.
- throwaway894345 7y ago
  > labor force participation among males has been declining in past decades while the number of folks incarcerated has risen and that there is no doubt a relation between the two Would be interesting to look at male education outcomes, labor force participation, and incarceration rates and compare them against their female equivalents. I know for fact that female education and labor force outcomes have been improving at the expense of male outcomes, but I'm not sure about female incarceration rates. My guess is that they are also increasing, but perhaps not at the same rate as male rates?
booboolayla 7y ago
It's almost as if feminism was about revenge and grabbing power, as opposed to "equality." Just wait until feminist "corrections" of dating/mating practices come to fruition, I'm afraid the consequences will be drastic and far-reaching.
mobilefriendly 7y ago
The war against boys was won. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2000/05/the-war-against-boys/304659/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2000/05/the-war...

gamblor956 7y ago

A large part of this is video games and the legalization of pot. Why work when you can get high and play games all day? Citation: https://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-video-games-jobs-emploment-20160923-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-video-games-jobs-... It's one of more than two dozen...

callinyouin 7y ago
Citation definitely needed. At the end of prohibition, one could have just as easily said something like "Why work when you can drink and play cards/horseshoes/whatever all day?"
- gamblor956 7y ago
  https://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-video-games-jobs-emploment-20160923-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-video-games-jobs-...
  - munk-a 7y ago
    > A few decades ago, an unemployed person might be stuck on the couch watching TV, isolated and depressed. Today, cheap or free services such as Facebook, Snapchat, YouTube and Netflix provide seemingly endless entertainment options and an easy connection to the outside world. Video games, in particular, provide a strong community and a sense of achievement that, for some, real-world jobs lack. I mean, this is absolutely equivalent to "Young people today aren't doing any work because it's so easy to entertain themselves - the wide availability of books is ruining society." Reading deep into the article, there aren't any specific income related analysis and their examples are all people that are living at home - so these are people who have the financial freedom to choose not to work (possibly by placing an undue burden on their parents). The gender split is interesting but might tie back to the same source, next time you're getting lunch with coworkers try asking how many chores people did as a kid, among my coworkers the women had much more responsibility (including one coworker who was responsible for making sure her brother did his chores and would have to do them for him if he shirked them). I think this is much more of an educational issue and much less something tied to video games... I'm also seeing no links to mj other than the broad assumptions that anyone who has ever touched mj is lazy.

munk-a 7y ago

> We can see these effects in the economy if you look closely, the labor participation rate among men is declining, most new jobs (which are service jobs) go to women, millions of men are missing in our society due to this system which throws away human capital. For what? Unless you think the declining labour participation is due to people being incarcerated I'm not certain how it's related? I, morally, think that the only justifiable punishment for a crime is what is needed to prevent recurrence - either through the same societal member or from other societal members. The fact that murder is highly punished definitely dissuades some proportion of potential murderers from murdering. From what I've seen of the efficacy of restorative justice I'm excited - it seems to greatly reduce recidivism while also lowering societal ostracization and coming home from jail to find a community that rejects you can directly contribute to higher recidivism. That all said, I also think that's it's pretty reprehensible how we treat criminals today - subcontracting out housing and care has been shown to greatly increase recidivism which increases costs in the long run. I think this stance is acceptable if you consider all criminals to be lost causes that are just running out the clock on their lives since they're defective, in such a case minimizing costs/day with the assumption that the term of punishment is fixed serves to minimize the cost to society... But I disagree strongly with the assumption that all or, even, most criminals are lost causes.

kiliantics 7y ago

Beyond restorative justice, there's also transformative justice that people in radical circles advocate for: https://savethekidsgroup.org/defining-transformative-justice/ https://savethekidsgroup.org/defining-transformative-justice...

harimau777 7y ago

I could see restorative justice being effective for many crimes. However, for crimes resulting in permanent harm (murder, maiming, rape, etc.) I don't see how restorative justice can work if the harm cannot be restored.